Should EVs Make Artificial Sounds at Low Speeds?

[J1mbo]

OK, it happens, but not nearly as often as being hit by a car.

Jason Wakeford, director of campaigns for road safety charity Brake, said: "The rise in the numbers of pedestrians killed or injured by cyclists is concerning but the fact remains that vehicles are responsible for 99 per cent of road user fatalities.

The number of pedestrians fatally or seriously injured in collisions with cyclists has doubled since 2006 (from the UK to match your anecdotal evidence)

I also think you overestimate the utility of a car's crumple zone to a pedestrian. However I agree that getting hit with handlebars would really suck.

A key difference is that pedestrian safety is continuing to improve in cars - the Euro NCAP safety rating now includes "AEB Pedestrian", for example. This isn't happening for bikes.

Also, I think most modern cars (incl. Tesla) do pretty well with front impact pedestrian protection - this is at 25mph:

 

[Dr. J]

Are fully autonomous cars going to hit fewer pedestrians I wonder?

I should hope so. My guess is most of these collisions are due to driver inattention--they just don't see the guy in the road or are driving too fast to avoid him.

 

[Dr. J]

Inline comments.

A key difference is that pedestrian safety is continuing to improve in cars - the Euro NCAP safety rating now includes "AEB Pedestrian", for example. This isn't happening for bikes.
Agree.

Also, I think most modern cars (incl. Tesla) do pretty well with front impact pedestrian protection - this is at 25mph:
Disagree. I prefer to be the driver, not the pedestrian; the windshield, not the bug.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I'm gonna put some playing cards in my spokes ; >)

I have a golf cart with a super annoying mandated back up alarm. Ruins the quiet running aspect of driving.

Would prefer to have a driver operated tiny and soft horn to beep to let others know you are there. Push the button a little...get a little beep. Push it harder and get a loud HONK!

Cities will be so much more pleasant with silent vehicles.

 

[Don TLR]

My preferred sound candidate:

Haha I want this to be a choice, I'm sure Elon will give us some interesting options..

 

[JRP3]

Regulations may not, (probably will not), allow interesting options.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I prefer this:

 

[WannabeOwner]

My guess is most of these collisions are due to driver inattention--they just don't see the guy in the road or are driving too fast to avoid him.

Autonomous is, presumably, not going to fail on the "driving too fast" issue, but for the rest isn't AEB taking care of inattentive driver?

I got on highway yesterday (Poxy VW ICE with useless TACC controls), set TACC, then increased the set-speed one MPH per button press <sigh> so had to look down to see what MPH the cruise speed was reaching ... traffic in front braked and AEB sudden deceleration caused me to look up, and take over. I wouldn't have been looking down if the TACC settings weren't so useless ... but if I had been, for something else, outcome would have been equally good

 

[Don TLR]

I prefer this:

The voices in my head drown out that silence, or is it the tinitus from some doctor with a sawzall cutting a hole in it,, or both..

 

[wdolson]

Golden rule is:
Frequencies above 1 000Hz humans can't detect the height of sound source.
Frequencies above 10 000Hz humans can't detect direction of that sound.
E-tron sound appears to be low enough to be functional.

I agree. There are situations where sound is useful and situations where it is nonsense (on the road).
I've tuned Nissan Leaf's soundbox settings so it doesn't activate whirr when I'm in drive,
but it does chime when I reverse. It's actually helping me. When I'm in the middle of parking lot,
people assume vehicles move in forward direction so they just stand behind me, infinitely, even though
I actually want to back into a parking spot. Forward noise is dumb. I actually watch where I'm going
at 5-20km/h. And I can stop within a meter or two if I need to.
Also AC fans are making noise. It can be heard well enough.
It's just the reverse problem. A third of all accidents in the world happen when vehicle is moving in reverse.
But less than 1% of all travelling happens in reverse. So we should do something about that
For the drama, I'd be happy to enable forward moving noise once in a while.

I don't know what the mandates are in Europe, but the US has a mandate that all new cars sold have a backup camera. It goes into effect either this year or next year, I forget which. Backup collision sensors with automatic braking are also becoming a common feature. Mostly in more expensive cars right now, but it will likely be standard equipment within a few years.

A broad spectrum sound like an ICE is usually pretty easy to locate. I have joked that cars should produce a sound like a Pontiac GTO at low speeds, but something like that may actually be the best solution.

I have never been in an i8 and I've only seen one in the real world and it was parked, but from reviews I've seen the ICE engine noise the car makes sounds ridiculous to me. The Audi video above the guy talks about how people might drive too fast if they aren't getting audio feedback, which can happen with someone who isn't used to driving a very quiet car, but you adjust. A month after I got my Model S I did accidentally get up to 101 mph passing someone, but I haven't done anything close since because I've adjusted to the car. It's like learning to drive with regen brakes, there is a learning curve, but once you get used to it, most people like it better.

And I know I must not be alone in the ability to drive quiet cars within the speed limit. Hybrids and EVs are very popular around here. I do see at least one Tesla almost every time I do more than run very local errands, but I see lots and lots of Leafs, and the Prius is one of the most popular cars in Portland. The first time I rode in a Prius I found it disconcerting the car would start moving with none of the car start up sounds and vibrations, but again, you get used to it. Now I find ICE cars starting up a bit disconcerting.

 

[arnis]

I don't know what the mandates are in Europe, but the US has a mandate that all new cars sold have a backup camera.

Same here, almost all cars now have it. But there is no requirement for that camera to be useful. Dirt is the main enemy. For 2-4 months this camera is useless. Depending on climate.
Parking sensors are much more reliable. Usually 10-30x per winter when you actually need to rub the sensor or kick the snow off.

 

[WannabeOwner]

A broad spectrum sound like an ICE is usually pretty easy to locate

Over here Trucks used to have Beep-Beep reversing sounders, but IIRC it was found that people couldn't easily locate the sound location, so we now have white noise (which sounds dreadful ... but ...) which apparently is much better in terms of location. For large construction sites only trucks that have the newer white-noise sounders are allowed onsite.

I have never been in an i8 and I've only seen one in the real world and it was parked, but from reviews I've seen the ICE engine noise the car makes sounds ridiculous to me

I've not been up-close with an I8 but I thought the Vroom-Vroom simulated engine noise was on the speakers inside the car, not outside?, and as such maybe all that is heard outside is the Putt-Putt of the lawn mower engine? (Although, having said that, I guess it could be making a different sound when running on its minuscule-battery?)

 

[arnis]

Over here Trucks used to have Beep-Beep reversing sounders, but IIRC it was found that people couldn't easily locate the sound location, so we now have white noise (which sounds dreadful ... but ...) which apparently is much better in terms of location.

Similar problem like I mentioned previously:

Golden rule is:
Frequencies above 1 000Hz humans can't detect the height of sound source.
Frequencies above 10 000Hz humans can't detect direction of that sound.
E-tron sound appears to be low enough to be functional.

I should add that single frequency is the worst kind, aka that old school beep.

Nissan Leaf reversing beep for example has a mix of weird frequencies, making it easier to locate.

 

[malcolm]

With further technological changes in engine design, particularly related to ICE vehicles, any future move to increase the audibility of E/HE vehicles at low speeds to address public concerns may also potentially have to take into account future model ‘quiet’ ICE vehicles.

Careful consideration will be required if ‘added sound’ is to be used to improve the audibility of quiet vehicles. This will need to take into account the environments under which the vehicle is being used, the low speeds and the differing levels of background noise that might have to be overcome to prevent masking the audibility of the vehicle. This therefore makes moves to impose minimum noise limits on vehicles challenging.....
.....
While an assessment of accident statistics has been performed in this study, quiet ICE vehicles were not distinguished from the rest of the ICE fleet. Therefore, a further investigation of the accident statistics, and future monitoring, is recommended which should consider quiet ICE vehicles as either an individual subset or in combination with E/HE vehicles.

Source: Page 49 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...k-from-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-vehicles.pdf

 

[J1mbo]

Source: Page 49 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...k-from-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-vehicles.pdf

Thanks for that, very good.

 

[david_42]

I should hope so. My guess is most of these collisions are due to driver inattention--they just don't see the guy in the road or are driving too fast to avoid him.

Or, as is the case near my home, someone in dark clothes tries to run across a five-lane road, at night, in the rain. By actual count 5 of the last 7 fatalities. In two cases, the runner hit the side of a car and was run over by a second one.

I think EVs should make some noise at lower speeds and people should have a choice of sounds. I'd like a small herd of horses stampeding or coconuts.

 

[Price-S]

I disagree that it is driver inattention. I'd be willing to put money on inattention by pedestrians. The OP (page 1, 2008) had an interesting thought about a program to teach pedestrians to look both ways - gee, if they had only gone to kindergarten. And then there is the all important cell phone and ear buds. How are they going to hear anything? I really like my quiet S but if I'm forced to have a sound, I think it should sound like a Ferrari or Maserati. That would ruffle some feathers. And, sound only from the back. I think it's true, as others have posted, that tire sound is plenty of sound.

 

[Mike Tuccelli]

If I, 100% Deaf from birth can live to 70 years old without having to hear artificial sounds to survive, will be glad to be an expert witness in court to strike down any proposed artificial noise regulations.

 

[cruiserlarry]

Yeah, I (and others) have mentioned the dual horn idea in the past. Would be really useful particularly in those parking lot situations when you want to alert someone to your presence without seeming like a total ass. I seem to remember someone mentioning this as a feature on the EV1... like a gentle 'bonk' noise you'd get if you flashed the high beams or something (I might be mistaken). Anyhow it's a good idea. Don't know if Tesla has implemented anything like that, but it seems they haven't.

I have a 2012 Volt that has the dual horn feature. The turn signal stalk can be pushed inward to trigger the lower db horn, warning pedestrians without scaring them off their feet lol...interestingly, GM discontinued that feature on the Volt remodel in 2015. I found it useful when I remembered I had it, but honestly rarely used it. If it would become a standard feature, I'm sure it would be used more as it sinks into the driver's mindset over time. Seems like a simple software fix for horn voltage level control....

 

[daniel]

When I had the Zap Xebra I got a wooden train whistle. It's quite a nice thing, really four whistles in one that makes that characteristic train-whistle sound. I would blow it out the window when coming up behind pedestrians in parking lots. No go! Pedestrians are oblivious of everything other than a full-on jump-out-of-your-shoes car horn.