Should Tesla fully refund FSD owners in UK

[Sean.]

Interested to gauge opinion here based on Ed’s recent FSD small claims thread.

 

[Pink Duck]

His case hinged on buying exclusively online and while the website provided a time frame for feature delivery that was not met as part of contract.

In March 2019 it was advertised as “Full Self-Driving Capability”:

• “All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances.”
• “The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.”

(my text formatting)

Ultimately comes down to how patient people are, assuming it will be delivered one day, hopefully in their lifetimes. I took it more as a donation towards the cause of achieving automated driving to reduce needless KSI. Hoping something is available to help test on UK roads before warranty expires in 2026.

 

[Steerpike]

When I bought my first Tesla, my judgement was that useable Tesla FSD would not arrive in the UK within 3 years and decided therefore not to add it to my order. When I traded in nearly 3 years later I made the same decision again, and would probably come to the same conclusion today. I was tempted by the prospect of partial autonomy but it didn't and doesn't make financial sense to me.

 

[NewbieT]

Let’s be honest even today “Upcoming: Autosteer on city streets” which has got to be what, at least a year away in the UK? Or try 2 or 3 years.

Is there anyone on here who has asked for an FSD refund that hasn’t been offered one (in the end)?

 

[Durzel]

His case hinged on buying exclusively online and while the website provided a time frame for feature delivery that was not met as part of contract.

In March 2019 it was advertised as “Full Self-Driving Capability”:

• “All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances.”
• “The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.”

(my text formatting)

Ultimately comes down to how patient people are, assuming it will be delivered one day, hopefully in their lifetimes. I took it more as a donation towards the cause of achieving automated driving to reduce needless KSI. Hoping something is available to help test on UK roads before warranty expires in 2026.

Whilst that is true, I would venture there is probably an argument to be made that a contractual term should expect to be delivered in the practical lifetime of a vehicle. Is it a reasonableness test, I think. Would a court think it is reasonable that Tesla sell a feature today, for full price, that they don't intend to deliver (or can't) for potentially 5 years or more? When the vast majority of cars are financed now, is it reasonable to pay for a feature and not be able to avall yourself of it at all within the finance period, before the car goes back as part of the usual cycle?

There is also - I'd argue - the argument that Tesla are much closer to the sharp end of UNECE regulations than consumers. They will have a much better idea of which way the wind is blowing, and how quickly. Your average consumer can only be expected to take what a company tells them at face value. It is an unreasonable burden to say to them "well you should have done hours of research offline to work out how close "Upcoming" actually means".

These arguments are weaker than a definitive "Coming later this year" statement, for sure, but they aren't fatal, I don't think. I would be interested to hear what a district judge thinks of a company selling something they know they can't deliver (which isn't a preorder).

 

[MrBadger]

Is there anyone on here who has asked for an FSD refund that hasn’t been offered one (in the end)?

I can’t speak for the forum members specific circumstances, but one of our contributors managed to get a refund (and keep FSD to boot) via Section 75 consumer credit legislation. Don’t know why they went that route and whether they had previously approached Tesla.

 

[Pink Duck]

FSD Beta is now safer than the average US driver, but not the average UK driver, so that criterion isn’t yet met. The regulatory one neither.

 

[MrBadger]

“The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions.

Using my analogy of a learner driver blaming regulations for not being able to drive, I would suggest that “achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers” would be a tough one for Tesla argue first before blaming regulation of which they should currently be able to functionally partly meet should they took the appropriate approach.

 

[2020M3SR]

FSD Beta is now safer than the average US driver, but not the average UK driver, so that criterion isn’t yet met. The regulatory one neither.

Have you watched any videos? It can go really well for quite a bit of time, which is really positive, but, and there is always a but, it will then randomly drive in front of another oncoming vehicle or similar crazy move, which would result in serious injury or death.

I've said it before, but FSD puts you on high alert due to its unpredictable nature and thats why I think stats may show that its safer. People are ultra focused on FSD whereas a regular driver isn't necessarily ultra focused when they get behind the wheel.

The most dangerous time for FSD is when its almost feature complete. Thats the time when people will be complacent and then thats when the accidents will happen. As strange as it sounds, its actually safer now when its performing poorly, compared to what it might be like when its 'almost' perfect.

 

[2020M3SR]

Probably worth discussing in this thread too, that the UK has brought in legislation that means the manufacturer is liable for any accidents for autonomous vehicles, rather than the driver or the insurer. Which is great news for the consumer, as insurance prices would be much lower then.

Elon also said on Q3 earnings call that Tesla wouldn't underwrite Tesla FSD so it looks like Tesla FSD will never reach the UK. I would get my claim in quick, and get at the front of the queue tbh.

 

[Pink Duck]

Proposed bill, isn’t voted on or law yet, from the current government.

Hopefully Tesla Insurance can offer something more sensible than UK insurers some day.

There was no mention of insurance underwriting in the Q3 2023 earnings transcript.

 

[qwickshot]

The short answer is YES, if a person asks for it and they are the original owner, this is backed by U.K. consumer law.

Can we please not turn this thread into yet another FSD/radar/USS is <insert word here> thread. We already have plenty of those and we don’t need another.

 

[GRiLLA]

Whilst that is true, I would venture there is probably an argument to be made that a contractual term should expect to be delivered in the practical lifetime of a vehicle. Is it a reasonableness test, I think. Would a court think it is reasonable that Tesla sell a feature today, for full price, that they don't intend to deliver (or can't) for potentially 5 years or more? When the vast majority of cars are financed now, is it reasonable to pay for a feature and not be able to avall yourself of it at all within the finance period, before the car goes back as part of the usual cycle?

There is also - I'd argue - the argument that Tesla are much closer to the sharp end of UNECE regulations than consumers. They will have a much better idea of which way the wind is blowing, and how quickly. Your average consumer can only be expected to take what a company tells them at face value. It is an unreasonable burden to say to them "well you should have done hours of research offline to work out how close "Upcoming" actually means".

These arguments are weaker than a definitive "Coming later this year" statement, for sure, but they aren't fatal, I don't think. I would be interested to hear what a district judge thinks of a company selling something they know they can't deliver (which isn't a preorder).

It's certainly 'reasonable' that Tesla can't deliver this feature in the UK until the laws in the UK allow them to deliver it. UK Gov has been talking about enabling self-driving of various definition 'by next year' for at least the last 3 years. See 'Self-driving' cars to be allowed on UK roads this year

They also are not selling this at 'full price' compared to the US.

Anyway, Tesla aren't going to want to see any of this tested in Court, even if they win it's not worth the headlines. I would wager that they will try to brush off any direct complaints, but if someone really gets it filed with court, submits evidence and gets a court date they will be offered a settlement.

 

[2020M3SR]

Proposed bill, isn’t voted on or law yet, from the current government.

Hopefully Tesla Insurance can offer something more sensible than UK insurers some day.

There was no mention of insurance underwriting in the Q3 2023 earnings transcript.

He was asked if Tesla would undewrwrite, like Mercedes. He didn't say yes, and implied the status quo, implying that Mercedes is only doing it because its easier for them due to restrictions.

He basically inferred 'no' as if it was on their roadmap, he would have said as much. Here is the transcript:

The next question is, again, on FSD. Mercedes is accepting legal liability for when it's Level 3 autonomous driving system drive pilot is active. Is Tesla planning to accept legal liability for FSD? And if so, when?

Elon Musk

Well, there's a lot of people that assume we have legal liability judging by the lawsuits. We're certainly not being let that off the hook on that front whether we'd like to or wouldn't like to do.

I mean, I think it's important to remember for everyone that Mercedes' system is limited to roads in Nevada and some certain cities in California, doesn't work in the snow or the fog. It must have a lead car marked lanes, only 40 miles per hour. Our system is meant to be holistic and drive in any conditions, so we obviously have a much more capable approach. But with those kind of limitations, it's really not very useful.

 

[meavydev]

I said yes as I have it from new on my August 2019 car, which I still have.
However I would be happy if it was a transfer to a new car at any point, rather than their September one-off, as it isn't worth it over EAP...
I am getting free premium access though, as Tesla had to give it for free as they changed the conditions after I ordered the car. Not sure how many of us got that

 

[KennethS]

Being the eternal optimist I continue to hold hope that eventually FSD will have value in the UK. That said it is unacceptable in my view that FSD is not transferable when buying a different Tesla. It should be at the option of the car owner to leave it on a car being sold or (gulp) scrapped or move it to another Tesla. This doesn’t really cost Tesla anything unless they unfairly want a customer to buy it successive times. Although we don’t plan to sell either of our Tesla for many years I wonder if it might be a negotiated settlement to move it to a new car when that time comes in lieu of a refund. As it stands if we were selling our August 19 delivered 3 I would definitely be taking action against Tesla for a refund.

 

[MrBadger]

Not sure how many of us got that

That got rolled out to everyone affected I believe, and I suspect a few more beside.

I personally fought it with Tesla, along with some others and I believe the facebook group too, which it shouldn't have required us to do, but I suspect once they realised that consumer law was on our side, they capitulated pretty quick for all affected vehicles (early UK LR & Performance models), not just the ones, where UK consumer law trumped 'Tesla law'. I'm hoping that FSD will be being discussed in a similar way, especially with this tiger being let out of the bag...

 

[Pagemakers]

FSD Beta is now safer than the average US driver, but not the average UK driver, so that criterion isn’t yet met. The regulatory one neither.

In the UK it’s about as safe as a pissed up 12 year old on their first motorway drive.

 

[Pink Duck]

I wonder how the UK ADAS FSD Beta test drivers would describe it, except they are under NDAs.

 

[Pagemakers]

I can guarantee in my car - 2019 3P if I set of on the motorway and didn’t intervene with the drive, there would be a crash within the hour. Not because the Tesla has swerved off the motorway but because it has gone from 70-0 in the fast lane for no apparent reason, or half way though a lane change it has, without any notification swerved back into it’s previous lane causing a collision with a vehicle overtaking me.