Has anyone sued Tesla for FSD costs?

[WannabeOwner]

do manufacturers get exemptions for test cars?

Would seem reasonable ... in the name of progress, and all that.

[Unless kit car testing has changed since I did it more than a decade ago ...]

Build a kit car. Permitted to drive to testing centre without number plates etc. (bit of a challenge for ANPR and speed cameras If the car fails the test you can drive it home (unlike MOT). You can choose which test centre you would like. Some wag suggested getting an old F1 car for a "reasonable amount", choose a test centre at reasonable distance, drive there, fail, book a retest (considerably cheaper than the first test, 'coz they will only check "Whatever failed last time") ... Rinse and Repeat

are the Tesla test cars driving ‘radically altered vehicles’ that need Type Approval and re-registering?

Dunno if it would be sufficient, but one option is to have Human (or AP/whatever) drive the car, and FSD to shadow - it then reports what it would do differently to the actual driver, and the differences can be reviewed and tweaks made. There comes a point where FSD-Shadow is doing as-well-as or better-than the actual Driver ... so could get to that point without any regs or special permission.

I believe that Tesla did that with original mobileye AP to test/prove their inhouse AP replacement ... which led to a big falling out with Mobileye and Tesla switching overnight to their own AP software and new car buyers getting a "coming really soon OTA" version of AP - sound familiar?! Was like that for a year or thereabouts AFAICR

if you were to fail then costs could be interesting.

Ignorant question: Are costs limited in Small Claims court?

 

[edb49]

Reckon they’d lawyer up. Even for small claims. Probably magic circle types too. So if you were to fail then costs could be interesting.

That’s of course if it indeed got that far.

Claim would be in the small claims track - there are no costs provisions against the loser. (There are a few exceptions to this for highly unusual situations, but this wouldn't be one of them.)

Tesla could go guns blazing and turn up with Slaughter & May and a KC to a small claims track hearing. District judges are not fools, they would find this highly irregular and would smell a rat. Who knows what they'd do though? (Tesla or DJ)

 

[spon88]

Well who saw this coming? I'm surprised it's taken so long to be honest. I was always a skeptic and hence didn't "invest" but had I been persuaded and parted with cash, I'd be all in on trying to recover it. If only to uphold the principle that you can't promise something and completely fail to deliver. For me it's indefensible. I hardly use AP as it's way more stressful than driving, so I can imagine the disappointment with FSD. Good luck with getting your cash back.

 

[Sean.]

Claim would be in the small claims track - there are no costs provisions against the loser. (There are a few exceptions to this for highly unusual situations, but this wouldn't be one of them.)

Tesla could go guns blazing and turn up with Slaughter & May and a KC to a small claims track hearing. District judges are not fools, they would find this highly irregular and would smell a rat. Who knows what they'd do though? (Tesla or DJ)

I took Watches of Switzerland / Breitling UK to small claims some years ago. Unfortunately didn’t win. Had to pay their out of pockets costs transport / accomm. As I recall. Not legal or expert witness costs etc.

 

[Adopado]

Ignorant question: Are costs limited in Small Claims court?

Deciding whether to make a small claim

Find out what you should consider before starting a small claim and when you can make one.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk

 

[M3noob]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Do you think Trading Standards will have much bite? I would have thought it would be Small Claims Track at the County Court. I don't think Trading Standards will be very interested, it's more of a "legacy" problem now Tesla has changed their advertising claims/website wording.

Small claims limit could be an issue?

 

[edb49]

Small claims limit could be an issue?

Limit is £10k, although judge can allocate a larger claim than that to the small claims track for many reasons.

 

[Sean.]

Limit is £10k, although judge can allocate a larger claim than that to the small claims track for many reasons.

When are you due to hear back from your letter before action?

 

[edb49]

When are you due to hear back from your letter before action?

I've already heard back, and unsurprisingly they said "no". I have now issued court proceedings.

 

[CWT3LR]

I've already heard back, and unsurprisingly they said "no". I have now issued court proceedings.

Wishing you all the best with the case. Quite stressful, and can become a bit all consuming if you let it.

But certainly worth it, if for no other reason than Tesla and Musk treat non-US jurisdictions as though they were in the good ol' State of Texas and need taking down a peg or three.

 

[D.E.]

I've already heard back, and unsurprisingly they said "no". I have now issued court proceedings.

The problem, for the U.S. purchasers is the cost, attorney’s fees. I don’t know about the cost of legal representation in Wales but in the U.S. It wouldn’t be worth hiring attorneys then bringing suit for $10,000 in damages. Some advocate a class action but that tends to get people pennies on the dollar with the attorneys doing quite well. Additionally as part of class action settlements people give up all rights to sue individually or again for the same thing, and the company invariably has a “blameless” clause in the settlement language.

As an example of these class action suits, we were members of the class in the Equifax data breach wherein Equifax involuntarily collected our personal information then stupidly failed to encrypt and safeguard that information. Some idiot instigated a class action suit. Equifax settled for millions. We just got a check for $1.76. Equifax was held blameless as one of the terms of settlement, and all our rights to recover from damages was traded away. Now if that stupidity on their part results in enormous losses for us we cannot sue them. Of course the attorneys did well. There’s a requirement for an “opt out” notification but we received no such notifiication.

I hope the legal system in Wales is vastly better than our class action system.

 

[CWT3LR]

The problem, for the U.S. purchasers is the cost, attorney’s fees. I don’t know about the cost of legal representation in Wales but in the U.S. It wouldn’t be worth hiring attorneys then bringing suit for $10,000 in damages. Some advocate a class action but that tends to get people pennies on the dollar with the attorneys doing quite well. Additionally as part of class action settlements people give up all rights to sue individually or again for the same thing, and the company invariably has a “blameless” clause in the settlement language.

As an example of these class action suits, we were members of the class in the Equifax data breach wherein Equifax involuntarily collected our personal information then stupidly failed to encrypt and safeguard that information. Some idiot instigated a class action suit. Equifax settled for millions. We just got a check for $1.76. Equifax was held blameless as one of the terms of settlement, and all our rights to recover from damages was traded away. Now if that stupidity on their part results in enormous losses for us we cannot sue them. Of course the attorneys did well. There’s a requirement for an “opt out” notification but we received no such notifiication.

I hope the legal system in Wales is vastly better than our class action system.

Not specifically Wales (England and Wales have the same legal system, but not the same as Scotland) - but in a small claim (usually with damages of £10,000 or less) neither party is able to recover legal fees beyond the court costs of about £300 if you are the plaintiff, or travel expenses if you are the defendant. You can't recover solicitor or barrister costs even if you win, incentivising both parties to minimise their use. It is a process that a reasonably competent person can do without legal support. A further incentive is that the parties are encouraged to follow mediation before court. It is included in the court fee, and judges can take a dim view if one party unreasonably refuses to take part in mediation.

We are lucky to have a relatively low cost legal system in the UK. Something that Tesla HQ might want to bear in mind. Lose one small claim case and there would be nothing stopping thousands more people from using it as a precedent that Tesla would be unable to resist.

 

[GlynG]

To add to the comments of @CWT3LR , our small claims procedure also has a clause that a failure for the defendant to present to defend means the plaintiff automatically wins the case. Now imagine if lots of owners issued a small claims all over the country and Tesla has to send a representative to each court to defend - and as one wave subsides the next wave starts.

 

[NewbieT]

I’m not sure I’d say winning a small claim in the County Court would set precedent. It might encourage others to do the same, agreed.

My bets: 1. out of court settlement with NDA; 2. Tesla no show, or 3. Tesla lose.

 

[NewbieT]

Let’s be honest, a few small claims will be a distraction for Tesla. I can’t see them volunteering refunds broadly unilaterally without wider pressure. Legal pressure (Trading Standards/class action), or Political pressure will only follow media attention. We know Tesla news sells, if, if, they latch onto one of these cases it could push Tesla, but I doubt it. No such thing as bad news either. It’s just another opportunity for Elon to preach about Tesla’s vision and progress on Twitter.

 

[CWT3LR]

I’m not sure I’d say winning a small claim in the County Court would set precedent. It might encourage others to do the same, agreed.

My bets: 1. out of court settlement with NDA; 2. Tesla no show, or 3. Tesla lose.

Courts in general are bound only by the decisions of courts of a higher level. But the judicial system as a whole places a significant weighting on certainty, and county courts very frequently take shortcuts if a case has a high degree of similarity to already decided cases. Especially if that case garners publicity and becomes well known. But for Tesla, facing a handful at the moment, turning into dozens, then hundreds - it becomes a business decision. Which costs them least in the medium term?

 

[Cardo]

I’m not sure I’d say winning a small claim in the County Court would set precedent. It might encourage others to do the same, agreed.

My bets: 1. out of court settlement with NDA; 2. Tesla no show, or 3. Tesla lose.

Any case heard in a lower court could set a precedent that subsequent court hearings may refer to, however they would not be legally binding. Only a case heard at the High court or Court of Appeals (or higher court) can create “case law,” which would set a precedent that the courts must abide by.

 

[CWT3LR]

Any case heard in a lower court could set a precedent that subsequent court hearings may refer to, however they would not be legally binding. Only a case heard at the High court or Court of Appeals (or higher court) can create “case law,” which would set a precedent that the courts must abide by.

Take this scenario for Tesla. Not sure how likely it is.

Plaintiff A orders a car, thinking it had functional USS, and in turn summon, remote parking etc. Finding out it is not functional, sues and wins whatever the court decides is fair recompense - maybe even the full value paid for the car if the car is returned.

Two weeks later - Plaintiff B - exactly same situation - court could decide not even to have a full hearing to save court time, as the circumstances as set out in the court bundle from each side are so similar? Irrespective that it is listed for a different judge in a different County Court?

 

[edb49]

I don't think Tesla cases will reach this scale, but if you look at what happened with the PPI mis-selling scandal and the thousands of cases that were launched, you could imagine something similar.

 

[CWT3LR]

I don't think Tesla cases will reach this scale, but if you look at what happened with the PPI mis-selling scandal and the thousands of cases that were launched, you could imagine something similar.

Perhaps more like the diesel defeat-device scandal? People have been receiving cheques basically for no effort.