TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

So how important are those performance brakes?

Discussion in 'Model 3: Driving Dynamics' started by TurnFast, Jul 7, 2018.

  1. TurnFast

    TurnFast Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2018
    Messages:
    203
    Location:
    Redmond
    My budget can fit a base performance model with custom color.
    Looking at the performance package, I don't care about the pedals or spoiler, I can buy tires later, so that only leaves the brakes as something that seems difficult to add later that might be good to have. I also kind of like the idea of having a more stealthy performance car without the flashy rims and spoiler.
    How important do people think those upgraded brakes are?
     
  2. D3xDt3Reaction

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    308
    Location:
    Arizona
    In terms of actual driving and aesthetics aside, Elon said you wouldn’t notice a difference unless on a track.
     
    • Like x 2
  3. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    NC
    Yup.

    If you're not planning to use the car on a closed race track (or the chase scene from a Bourne film) you will experience 0 performance difference between those and the stock brakes (except maybe higher cost if you need to replace wear parts later on the "performance" brakes).

    And even on a track they won't ever stop you shorter than the stock brakes could the first time- they'll just take longer to start fading (taking longer to stop) after heavy/repeated braking from high speed without giving them a chance to cool off.
     
    • Informative x 3
    • Like x 2
  4. m3snowy

    m3snowy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    83
    Location:
    cloud
    I'm not gonna be racing/tracking my car, but the braking performance of the Model 3, especially with the energy efficient Michelin Primacy MXM4 tires, is the only area that lacks my ICE car.

    I'll probably start by upgrading the pads... but I still need to do more research. These look interesting:
    Model 3 Brakes

    And then there's this carbon ceramic brake upgrade that costs $9000!
    Unplugged Performance Superlight Carbon Ceramic Brake Kit for Model 3

    Disclaimer: I've no relationship with those vendors; and I haven't bought anything from them.
     
  5. D3xDt3Reaction

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    308
    Location:
    Arizona
    I tend to agree with @Knightshade here - unless you are concerned about brake fade over multiple hard stops, you’d be better off spending money on stickier tires. Fancy brake kits should not significantly change stopping distance for a single hard stop.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
    • Love x 1
  6. xav-

    xav- Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,161
    Location:
    Orange County CA
    Are the brakes without the performance package similar as the RWD brakes? If so I would urge you to get the performance package.

    Braking distances:
    - RWD Mode 3: 60 to 0: 133 feet (!) with 18 inch tires / 126 feet (19 inch sport wheels)
    - BMW M3: 99 feet

    And it gets exponential as the speed increase...

    You are going to spend $70k on a performance car that doesn’t brake as quickly as my $260 a month 0 down Chevy volt... that makes no sense.

    So if you are getting the performance car without that package I think you are making a mistake. You may as well get the non performance AWD car IMO or RWD.

    Again I am assuming that the brakes without the performance package are similar as the RWD.. (which I own and which suck).. apologies if my assumptions are incorrect.
     
  7. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    6,360
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Much of this comes down to tires.
     
    • Like x 2
  8. D3xDt3Reaction

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    308
    Location:
    Arizona
    #8 D3xDt3Reaction, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
    Agreed. I’d like to see the same brake test on the RWD Model 3 with the same rubber used on the BMW M3. If the brakes can lock up the tires (all stock brakes should be capable at normal highway speeds), why does it help to have bigger pads for a single stop when cool? The ABS modulates the brakes when at the slip limit - tires are what matters there, assuming the ABS is working well. Larger, ventilated rotors definitely help with fade over repeated stops as the brakes heat, but insignificant effect on a single stop from a reasonable speed.

    See also http://www.cquence.net/blog/big-brake-kits-do-they-work/
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  9. pandam3

    pandam3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    Orange County
    Is rather just get this BBK

    MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit

    Instead of paying $5k I’d get
    - the MPP BBK
    - MPP/KW coilovers
    - a set of PS4S tires
    - RPM Tesla CF spoiler

    If there’s room in the budget... maybe a set of Volk Racing wheels to go with those PS4S tires
     
    • Love x 1
  10. JADCa

    JADCa Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    California
    Big brakes do not improved stopping distance, tires do. Big brakes are actually heavier and slower but pay off big in cooling on a race track. If you are not tracking the car the big brakes will slow it down with added cost and unsprung weight.
     
  11. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    NC
    For anyone who mistakenly thinks big brakes do anything at all to reduce normal stopping distance, get the myth disproven in detail here-

    GRM Pulp Friction

    Well known brake system designer for Stoptech, Ford, and others, teaches SAE master classes on brake systems, has literally written books on the topic.

    He explains what each element of the braking system does, and does not do, and ultimately why bigger brakes don't stop the car any shorter.

    The brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 1
  12. R.S

    R.S Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,110
    Location:
    Munich, Bavaria, Germany
    I’d get it for the wheels and brakes. A Model 3 with standard wheels brakes worse than a Camry. So even for every day driving you want to avoid those.

    If you already go for a performance car, that also handles well and doesn’t seem to have the thermal issues, like the S, why not take it to a track someday?

    It’s fun and otherwise you just spent a bunch of money to go from 10-30 mph a bit faster.

    If you just wat it to brag, then you want the performance package as well, for the looks.
     
  13. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    NC
    That has nothing to do with the wheels or brakes.

    It has to do with the tires.

    Putting the same tires on the 18s or 19s and the car will stop in exactly the same distance as with the 20s.

    And probably handle slightly better since it's running lighter wheels.
     
    • Like x 2
  14. R.S

    R.S Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,110
    Location:
    Munich, Bavaria, Germany
    Non native English speakers here, so yea it’s the tires actually, but those are influenced by the wheel size. You can’t fit all tires on all wheels. Once you add in the width of the tire, then it really starts to make a difference.

    But if you have the same width, there should be little difference if you can have the same tire. Is there a pilot sport 4s for the 18 inch?

    But I have to disagree on handling!
    The differences between 17 18 and 19 inch tyres - Tyre Reviews
    Bigger wheels, same tires, better handling.

    Suspension also has a big influence on braking performance. But that doesn’t seem to change with the performance package.
     
  15. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    NC
    Sure- but the 18, 19, and 20s are all exactly the same width from Tesla.

    So the 19/20 add nothing but weight.

    Yup. They make em in every size from 17 to 22.

    Um, your link does not say what you think it says...

    Basically both objectively and subjectively the bigger wheels were "better" in dry and the smaller were "better" in wet.... but in actual measured performance these differences were so small there was virtually no real difference at all between any of them.

    In the end they picked the middle sized wheels as "ideal" since actual performance was basically identical across all 3 sizes, but the 18s were the best compromise of smooth cruise and quietness.



    Yeah- as far as anything Tesla has said the P has the same suspension as all other model 3s (it's one of the reasons I didn't find going to the P worth the $)
     
  16. R.S

    R.S Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,110
    Location:
    Munich, Bavaria, Germany
    Of course I know what my link says, the bigger tires did improve (dry) handling, the improvements weren't too big, but you claimed handling would get worse, which I wanted to disprove.

    But after reading a bit, I have to (somewhat) agree with you. If you can really get the same tires on the 17s and you don't care about brake fade, then skip the performance upgrade. But as an advice to the OP: get the good tires!

    It will be interesting to see, how good the performance Model 3 stops, but one thing we can say for sure is, that with the 18 inch wheels standard tires, you won't be impressed.

    Braking is often ignored in discussions about performance, but a car that takes 130 feet to get from 60 to 0 is as much a performance car as one going from 0-60 in 10 seconds.
     
  17. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    6,360
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    #17 JeffK, Jul 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
    Totally false. It does not take 10 seconds to brake from 60 - 0.

    distance = 1/2 (V_initial)^2 / acceleration

    130 ft = 0.5 * (88 ft/s)^2 / a
    a = 29.78 ft/s^s

    v = a*t
    88 ft/s = 29.78 * t
    t = 2.95 seconds

    So braking in 130 ft is equivalent to a vehicle going 0-60 in 2.95 seconds.
    It's also not just about the size of the tires, but the type of rubber. Example, if your replace the stock tires with stickier tires of the same size, you'll get better braking performance.
     
    • Like x 1
  18. Knightshade

    Knightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    NC
    But again, being a "performance" cars has literally nothing whatsoever to do with stopping distance. It has entirely to do with how good a tire is on the car.


    A while back Edmunds tested winter vs summer vs all seasons in various conditions- the main point was regarding how much better seasonal tires are, in all seasons, when compared with all-seasons which always come in 2nd or 3rd place behind them.

    But since they used the same car and wheels for all testing, and the same size and even brand of tire, switching only between the tread patterns, it ALSO serves as informative over how large an impact tires can have on stopping distance.



    In dry warm conditions for example the 3 sets stopped the car in 120 feet, 131 feet, and 155 feet resepctively.

    In wet warm conditions the 3 sets stopped the car in 157, 181, and 215 feet respectively.

    That's a 35 foot different in dry, and 58 foot difference in wet- same car, same brakes, same wheels...no differences at all other than tires.

    (all distances from 60 BTW)

    That 130 feet on the Model 3 is with crap all season tires... (Edmunds FWIW got 122 feet on the stock all seasons after the ABS computer update)....

    Put excellent summer performance tires on there and stopping distance will magically drop, likely by a fair bit... (motortrend got 5 feet shorter just by switching to slightly better all seasons on the factory 19s for example)
     
    • Like x 1
  19. kbM3

    kbM3 Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
    Messages:
    896
    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Model 3 Performance does not need the same brakes as the BMW M3. According to Elon, the dual motor regen is capable of riding the tire traction limit of the 18” stock tires. The BMW M3 has zero regen so all braking force needs to be accomplished by the friction brakes.

    Two totally different animals. One is the future and the other the past,
     
  20. MountainPass

    MountainPass Vendor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    233
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    @kbM3 where did you see Elon mentioning that there is enough regen to ride teh traction limit? Up to what speed?

    Thanks for those that have suggested our MPP rotor upgrade kit! It's my favorite part we've done to date for sure. The rear discs are larger than the fronts with the OEM setup!
     
    • Informative x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC