gilscales
Banned
Being from California, you hit the nail on the head
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So, why does Tesla have such a hard time painting cars?
- Thread starter StellarRat
- Start date
Being from California, you hit the nail on the head
That is the best post I have seen in weeks. Hopefully, that will be the new standard.
There's more nuance to my post obviously but damn did a little troll comment get some panties in a bunch.
Going to sit down and argue with me on how subsides work? Or that regulations don't slow down businesses? Really?
Degraded down to questioning if I have a degree or any professional talent in my field. I made an offer to put some money where the mouth is but I wasn't going to have takers.
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May I add something from 6,000 miles away? If California is such a hell for setting up a business, can someone please explain why there are so many Californian (and more generally US West Coast) companies among those which have the biggest market capitalisation, the most revenue and the biggest profits in the world? Also, those companies seem to have invested in fields where their future looks promising, so the gap between these companies and others will likely only get bigger, imho...
Also, I don't think Tesla is an automobile manufacturer. It just happens to put its batteries and motors in automobiles. It may not be the best at building (or painting
) cars around those batteries and motors (although I must say I have been very glad with my Tesla, over the last five years) but in any event battery technology, electric motor technology and autopilot is what I think Tesla is all about. And for sure that is not something limited to automobiles, which probably represent only a very small fraction of that market...There's nuance to every point.
Industry means everything.
A study on absolute advantage versus comparative advantage would explain the phenomenon of why the 5th largest GDP in the world (if California was a country) is poor for manufacturing **relative** to another state.
This isn't related to paint strictly but manufacturing in general.
Example: How much does Apple need to worry about OHSA in Cupertino? Worst case that happens is someone busts their nose running into an invisible glass window with how Apple designed their headquarters.
Apple employees keep running into walls at its new spaceship campus
At Tesla, you can potentially lose life and limb on the production line.
Death's at Foxconn in Guangzhou doesn't affect anyone in Cupertino.
I visit China manufacturing facilities at least once a year and somehow I don't know what the f I'm talking about in the state of my birth and residence. LOL
Apple, Facebook, Instagram, -some- of Tesla's employees are coded under 8810 for purposes of workers compensation. None of them are coded under 6219 unlike Tesla's Fremont Factory.
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gilscales
Banned
There's more nuance to my post obviously but damn did a little troll comment get some panties in a bunch.
Going to sit down and argue with me on how subsides work? Or that regulations don't slow down businesses? Really?
Degraded down to questioning if I have a degree or any professional talent in my field. I made an offer to put some money where the mouth is but I wasn't going to have takers.
I've never seen anything quite this bad in MY lifetime (but I'm only 58) I do remember times when bipartisan compromises were on the table but it seems TO ME that the far left has set the bar so low for what they call governing that you can't help but trip over it.
Absolutely, it's finger in the ears and LALALALALALA once triggered.
It doesn't help achieve greater mutual cooperation, understanding, and progress.
I said almost immediately I don’t know anything about paint manufacturing as it’s not my wheelhouse.
I DO know for certain California is anti business in many ways and there is no way it is not a contributing factor to any production woes. That’s not an unreasonable stance at all.
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devilmountain
Member
California is very anti-business. My father, before he was retired, always complained about California being a pain in the butt. I have had many body shop people tell me that the paint we can use in California sucks. They aren't scientists; they are guys who paint cars. I would think their opinion counts for something. I know guys that are painting classic cars, and they go out of state to buy paint or at least used too.
To comment on the outsourcing.... I recently wrote a research paper for my class how many corporations doing business in environmentally friendly states or countries outsource their manufacturing that is less environmentally friendly. My paper was more based off of outsourcing labor, but I found this mentioned in my research a few times.
Many people here think we should raise taxes on corporations even though they are leaving California in large numbers. I remind people that mom and pop shops can be corporations and I get stared at in disbelief. Then I proceed to tell them that I ran a corporation and it was a small business.
To comment on the outsourcing.... I recently wrote a research paper for my class how many corporations doing business in environmentally friendly states or countries outsource their manufacturing that is less environmentally friendly. My paper was more based off of outsourcing labor, but I found this mentioned in my research a few times.
Many people here think we should raise taxes on corporations even though they are leaving California in large numbers. I remind people that mom and pop shops can be corporations and I get stared at in disbelief. Then I proceed to tell them that I ran a corporation and it was a small business.
If body shop people get paint from out of state, I consider it case closed. Their opinion counts more than anyone.
An economics degree is great to explain the theory but you see the real life applications right in front of our very eyes.
Chrysler LLC has 80,000 employees.
I can run a single member LLC.
Many of the same burdensome rules applies.
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Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Big difference between how a body shop paints and how a factory paints cars. There's no evidence that Tesla uses different pain technology than other US manufacturers. Also it sounds like you haven't looked at the paint quality threads. Many of the problems have nothing to do with the type of paint used. Dirt and hair in paint, scratches, unpainted sections. You seem determined to turn this thread in to a political argument. You've already blown your credibility with your claim that no one manufacturers anything in California when in fact California's manufacturing industry is the largest in the country. It makes it much harder to believe your other unsubstantiated claims. Why don't you do some research and get back to us when you can show that Tesla's paint is different from other auto manufacturers.
Daniel in SD .... you are a gifted writer.
I love this: "Many of the problems have nothing to do with the type of paint used. Dirt and hair in paint, scratches, unpainted sections. You seem determined to turn this thread in to a political argument."
I could not agree more.
I might overlook minor blemishes in the finish ..... but areas where this IS NO FINISH (as has been shown in numerous photos) is absolutely unacceptable.
Tesla's sales and delivery success will eventually lead to their downfall ....
IF,
the percentage of new cars with defects that require SC correction is not reduced significantly!!
Imagine the burden on the SC this quarter alone, 80k vehicles were produced.
Each month the burden will increase (if improvements are not made) and owners will become more frustrated with long waits to get an appointment, and even longer delays in getting the vehicle back. Actually, it is already starting to occur based on numerous comments in this forum.
I love this: "Many of the problems have nothing to do with the type of paint used. Dirt and hair in paint, scratches, unpainted sections. You seem determined to turn this thread in to a political argument."
I could not agree more.
I might overlook minor blemishes in the finish ..... but areas where this IS NO FINISH (as has been shown in numerous photos) is absolutely unacceptable.
Tesla's sales and delivery success will eventually lead to their downfall ....
IF,
the percentage of new cars with defects that require SC correction is not reduced significantly!!
Imagine the burden on the SC this quarter alone, 80k vehicles were produced.
Each month the burden will increase (if improvements are not made) and owners will become more frustrated with long waits to get an appointment, and even longer delays in getting the vehicle back. Actually, it is already starting to occur based on numerous comments in this forum.
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Do you understand absolute versus relative manufacturing advantages. Yes/no?
There is manufacturing in every city on earth. Point is massively missed. I’ll run my business units and you can run yours. If you run one? Start one in California and see how you do?
I don’t care about politics, I care about results. You take one troll comment which I admitted to be a troll comment and you keep holding on to it. No one knows how to take a joke - to the point of wondering if someone went to school or not.
I’m a funny guy. Maybe not everything I say is funny to all people all the time. Sorry you did not see it as such.
When given an opportunity to try and discredit me and make money, they immediately back off and cite counterparty risk. LOL
In the end I want Tesla to be successful with their production.
That’s all that matters. Politics doesn’t help when a person who votes left gets a jacked up car. Politics doesn’t help when someone who votes right gets a jacked up car.
A problem with politics is people see it as 0 or 10. Nothing is in between. People who give Trump a 10 is crazy. So are the people who give him a 0. Same with Hilary, same with Obama and Bernie.
It’s obvious their paint quality has nothing to do with hair in the paint but that’s one example. There are other paint issues that can be explained due to manufacturing issues which may be explained with regulations in part.
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It may work or it may be wishful thinking but if I were Tesla, I would have a Q1-2019 capex item to build a second paint facility.
In theory, one can look at all the issues plaguing paint process 1 and correct it as part of a green field implementation.
There's no question that they should not be able to match the output of "Process 1". If they can match the output, they can spend double the time on each individual car and it would be certain to improve the end results.
Now does it make sense to spend 100% extra time on each car? We don't know. There's going to be a marginal improvement curve that will diminish. Tesla has yet to hit that spot where marginal improvement is equal to marginal expenditure.
As far as lacking painting expertise, Tesla can recruit those KSA's as needed. One more person at $200,000 isn't going to break their GAAP profitability.
There's no COO at Tesla who can answer what the problem is so I am conjecturing but so is everyone else.
What I can say is I think If there was an additional facility that did nothing but silver and obsidian black metallic, those would still be on the menu.
In theory, one can look at all the issues plaguing paint process 1 and correct it as part of a green field implementation.
There's no question that they should not be able to match the output of "Process 1". If they can match the output, they can spend double the time on each individual car and it would be certain to improve the end results.
Now does it make sense to spend 100% extra time on each car? We don't know. There's going to be a marginal improvement curve that will diminish. Tesla has yet to hit that spot where marginal improvement is equal to marginal expenditure.
As far as lacking painting expertise, Tesla can recruit those KSA's as needed. One more person at $200,000 isn't going to break their GAAP profitability.
There's no COO at Tesla who can answer what the problem is so I am conjecturing but so is everyone else.
What I can say is I think If there was an additional facility that did nothing but silver and obsidian black metallic, those would still be on the menu.
gilscales
Banned
You left out a very big reason for CA
CA has 5.6 TIMES the average % of welfare recipients found in the other 49 states | FlashReport
Because the benefits are so generous here
gilscales
Banned
Not going to derail this thread further, but when you have high cost living and low minimum wages, there is a government subsidy that happens to meet requirements for a living wage.
Consider this:
1. Cooltown, USA is a desirable place to live because of its weather, beaches, diversity, and avocado toast.
2. Lots of people want to live in Cooltown, USA
3. Prices for unregulated and low-reg goods and services go up (e.g. housing) since lots of people want to live in Cooltown.
4. Minimum wage in Cooltown is the same as minimum wage in Craptown since politicians don’t like the idea of being “unfriendly” to businesses and so min wage stays low. So McDonalds, Walmart and the Piggly Wiggly only pay workers the minimum wage required by law
5. That minimum wage isn’t enough money to rent a studio anywhere near Cooltown, assuming you want some money left to eat food, have some form of transportation. and have healthcare.
6. Government says it’s good public policy for people to have food to eat so let’s give them a food voucher since Cooltown is so much more expensive than Craptown.
7. Thus the percentage of people receiving food vouchers is highest in Cooltown rather than Craptown because of a public-private subsidy of corporations.
Cooltown = California. Craptown = flyover country (joking...well kinda).
Minimum wages exist for a reason. They should have been indexed to CPI since today’s federal minimum wages are substantially lower in real terms than when my grandparents were in the workforce.
QED.
gilscales
Banned
Avocado toast = 34% of the nations welfare for 12% of the nations population
Letter: California is #1 in poverty — because its benefits attract the poor from all over the nation – The Mercury News
Might want to try actual facts instead of nonsense. CA is one of the lesser federally dependent states. It turns out when you're one of the biggest economies in the US, you can extend better assistance benefits to your residents. Welfare also comes in many forms for individuals and families like housing assistance, food assistance, violence shelters, health care clinics and programs, free or discounted birth control programs, community rejuvenation programs, education assistance for adults that have been laid off, temporary housing programs for those that are displaced by natural disasters, public funds for all kinds of things, etc. So sometimes, a little government spending actually spurs the economy to generate more revenue than what was spent.
Which States Rely the Most on Federal Aid? - Tax Foundation
2018’s Most & Least Federally Dependent States
You know opinion pieces don't count as cited sources, right? If you didn't, now you do. Opinion columns are just that- Someone's opinion.
@SoCalGuy Let's use "California" and "Mississippi". "Fly-over states" seems to rile people up.
Oh boy - Gil I don’t think I have the energy to undo 58 years of “conservative” conditioning. Your first source is FUD and this Merc News source is an opinion piece. Is your next source going to be Drudge Report or InfoWars/Alex Jones?
I’d suggest either putting forth a reasoned logical argument and/or provide a set of primary sources (maybe some census/ACS data, DOT econ stats, peer reviewed journal articles, etc) rather than online blogs or opinion hacks.
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