So, why does Tesla have such a hard time painting cars?

[DrDabbles]

Why did my thread about painting cars degenerate into an argument about manufacturing in California? Can any of you tell me how the State affects the quality of a paint job??? If so, I might think it was a worthwhile argument. Otherwise I think this thread is no longer worth pursuing for me anyway.

The discussion ended up here because the presumption is that California has excessively strict emissions laws when it comes to paint. Paint is thinned by adding volatile compounds to it. When those compounds evaporate, the paint cures, hardens, and permanently bonds to the surface it was applied to. California (as well as several other states in the US, and countries around the world) limit how many of these compounds and what kinds can be legally allowed in paint sold or used in their jurisdiction.

So modern paints use water as the thinning agent. Water evaporates, the paint cures, hardens, and permanently bonds to the surface it was applied to. The incorrect thinking is that water evaporates more slowly, or that it makes the paint inferior in some way, or that ecologically sensitive policies and regulations make everything worse. The facts, on the other hand, is that nearly every auto manufacturer has switched over to low "VOC" (volatile organic compounds) paints, with many of them switching to water-based painting processes. BMW, Mercedes, and I believe VW auto group has as well. Several states in the US require low VOC or no VOC paints, and all of Canada has the same requirements. Most popular "American" car brands are actually manufactured in Canada, so I believe they also do not use VOCs in their paint processes.

This all gets back to the fact that Tesla, by requirement and by intent, uses water-based paints. Their process actually surpasses California's requirements, which they did not need to do. So, the water used to thin the paint on Tesla's cars is no different than paint applied to a BMW M3, or a Porsche GT2, or a Maybach. The process is pretty well standardized across the industry, so there's little or no difference there either. So the paint issues we see making it to customer delivered cars, where there's an actual flaw in the paint, is down to quality control not catching the problem before the car leaves the paint booth, and not catching the problem before the car leaves the factory. That needs to change if Tesla want to improve their image in the industry, but the solvents used in their paint does not.

 

[ngogas]

Perhaps elon will invite some of us to help paint cars now that delivery has been under control. Or perhaps do some paint QA.... I don't mind.

 

[SoCalGuy]

I just noticed another little silver paint bubble under the clear coat on my driver side rear door. Thought it was dust until i felt it and it was smooth... That makes 12 minor-ish paint defects on a car that rolled off the line exactly 13 days ago. Oh the joys of owning a first edition Model 3

 

[Shizzrock]

Why did my thread about painting cars degenerate into an argument about manufacturing in California? Can any of you tell me how the State affects the quality of a paint job??? If so, I might think it was a worthwhile argument. Otherwise I think this thread is no longer worth pursuing for me anyway.

Some Trump nut thought paint regulations are the reason why TSLA, the most shorted stock on the planet, that has to make 55000 cars in a quarter just to keep from being CNBC fodder, has QC issues with paint. Not the fact that they tried to deliver 10000 cars last weekend. Nope, VOC regulations. That's why. Not sabotage of the paint factory by greedy little piggies. Water-based paint. Everyone knows water-based paint causes fisheyes.

 

[Shizzrock]

I just noticed another little silver paint bubble under the clear coat on my driver side rear door. Thought it was dust until i felt it and it was smooth... That makes 12 minor-ish paint defects on a car that rolled off the line exactly 13 days ago. Oh the joys of owning a first edition Model 3

I stopped counting and conceded that they give my car "character". I will try to get the panel offsets fixed though.

 

[rainforest]

I just noticed another little silver paint bubble under the clear coat on my driver side rear door. Thought it was dust until i felt it and it was smooth... That makes 12 minor-ish paint defects on a car that rolled off the line exactly 13 days ago. Oh the joys of owning a first edition Model 3

I got a dozen of those bubbles. I beat you. But my painter friend said that they can easily be polished flat.

 

[SoCalGuy]

I got a dozen of those bubbles. I beat you. But my painter friend said that they can easily be polished flat.

Even if they’re under the clear coat?

 

[moridin2002]

So unless a paint expert comes in that knows Tesla’s process intimately and can answer with authority my answer makes more sense than any one else’s as I provided evidence on California being unfriendly at everything business.

In a fantasy world, Jerry Brown goes to Fremont and gives Musk a directive to take the kid gloves off and ensures California plants produce the best painted cars in the world.

VOCs + CO + NOx = Ozone
Ozone = smog
Smog = health and safety implications

CA, generally, has much more tightly controlled VOCs due to air quality issues throughout the state. As other areas of the country become more populated, they will have to begin to implement similar strategies to deal with air quality issues. No one should get a pass. And, from what other people have said on here, the VOC issue may not even be the driving factor for Tesla's paint issue. Everyone else seems to be, or already has, switched over to low VOC water based paint.

And about your diesel generator issue, it is much, much, much more difficult to write a retroactive regulation than it is to write rules that come into affect into the future.

 

[DrDabbles]

VOCs + CO + NOx = Ozone
Ozone = smog
Smog = health and safety implications

CA, generally, has much more tightly controlled VOCs due to air quality issues throughout the state. As other areas of the country become more populated, they will have to begin to implement similar strategies to deal with air quality issues. No one should get a pass. And, from what other people have said on here, the VOC issue may not even be the driving factor for Tesla's paint issue. Everyone else seems to be, or already has, switched over to low VOC water based paint.

And about your diesel generator issue, it is much, much, much more difficult to write a retroactive regulation than it is to write rules that come into affect into the future.

I live in NH, a pretty sparsely populated state compared to CA. We have the same regulations. This isn't related to population numbers, it's related to not wanting a toxic environment for the population you've got. Another nice benefit of using water when applying paint is that the water can be captured, filtered, and reused over and over again. Now your one regulation has two positive impacts. And it saves the manufacturer money! (That's why BMW did it in South Carolina) This article from 2012 sheds some light. Waterborne painting process is a first at South Carolina BMW plant

 

[rainforest]

Even if they’re under the clear coat?

He can polish the dust nib down so at least the clear coat is flat. But if the dust is under the clear coat, it's permanent.

 

[smatthew]

So unless a paint expert comes in that knows Tesla’s process intimately and can answer with authority my answer makes more sense than any one else’s as I provided evidence on California being unfriendly at everything business.

In a fantasy world, Jerry Brown goes to Fremont and gives Musk a directive to take the kid gloves off and ensures California plants produce the best painted cars in the world.

But you called California communists. Not cool man. Not cool. I'm no commie.

 

[Perry]

Anytime you are painting up to a thousand cars a week, things are going to happen.

The upset people will complain much LOUDER than the happy people. Makes it seem worse than it is (except to those who have the issue)

The happy people are people who suck at spotting or don't care about paint or other defects.

The day I picked up my car from Fremont and noticed all the paint defects on my car, out of curiosity, I went around the parking lot looking at other Model 3s being delivered that day to see if maybe I was just the unluckiest guy there. I found paint defects in every single car I looked at in that parking lot (granted I only looked at about 10).

While I was waiting for them to document all the defects, I saw this young couple two cars down from mine just about to drive off after signing their documents. I overheard them lamenting happily that they felt good about their car not having any problems. I could not stay silent and pointed out all the paint defects I had spotted on their car earlier. I kind of spoiled their day but still better that they know so it can be documented.

From what I saw that day 9/12/18, I believe 80-90% of Model 3s come with some kind of paint defects and/or panel alignment issues. Mine came with 3 alignment issues and 4 paint defects. Hopefully this will change soon. I still like the car but its a pain to have to bring it in the shop right after I just got it. And when I get it back I'll have to go look at it again with a fine tooth comb because more likely they added other scuffs while working on it.

 

[rainforest]

The happy people are people who suck at spotting or don't care about paint or other defects.

The day I picked up my car from Fremont and noticed all the paint defects on my car, out of curiosity, I went around the parking lot looking at other Model 3s being delivered that day to see if maybe I was just the unluckiest guy there. I found paint defects in every single car I looked at in that parking lot (granted I only looked at about 10).

While I was waiting for them to document all the defects, I saw this young couple two cars down from mine just about to drive off after signing their documents. I overheard them lamenting happily that they felt good about their car not having any problems. I could not stay silent and pointed out all the paint defects I had spotted on their car earlier. I kind of spoiled their day but still better that they know so it can be documented.

From what I saw that day 9/12/18, I believe 80-90% of Model 3s come with some kind of paint defects and/or panel alignment issues. Mine came with 3 alignment issues and 4 paint defects. Hopefully this will change soon. I still like the car but its a pain to have to bring it in the shop right after I just got it. And when I get it back I'll have to go look at it again with a fine tooth comb because more likely they added other scuffs while working on it.

You took the words out of my mouth. But I probably wouldn’t have pointed out issues to another customer and ruin the moment. For some people like my dad, he wouldn’t even care about dust nibs etc. He can’t even see such tiny details.

 

[ngogas]

My ram and Jeep had some paint defects. I didn’t care. I think it’s up to the person as many pointed out here. I respect both picky and no picky. It’s what you pay for and what you can live or care about.

 

[super20g]

The happy people are people who suck at spotting or don't care about paint or other defects.

This... 'Ignorance is bliss.'

Feel the same with everything else you said as well. I noticed defects on the other cars on the lot on d-day and again when I dropped off to service a few weeks later to fix d-day defects. I know the people with problems are usually the stories you hear about, but I have a feeling most have these build quality issues and just don't notice or care, which I guess is their prerogative.

My feeling is that this may not be the car/manufacturer for you if you have a critical eye and like to detail or look closely at your own car. I am still wow'd by the technological progression compared to other manufacturers at this price point, but fit and finish are only so-so and is lacking even compared to cars half the price from manufactures others scoff at. And I know YMMV with service, but that has only been so-so as well on my end.

Service advised leaving the contaminates in the paint rather than having them fixed so I don't lose the factory paint. I asked that the paint issues be fixed... Who wants a new 60k car you have been waiting on for 900 days to have paint issues? On their way to the body shop I got alerts that the car hit the speed limit set at 85. Informed the SA, no response. Week later got another alert on the way back to service with fresh paint that the car was again bouncing off the 85 mph speed limit. Then they disabled mobile access. Then told me the car came back in worse shape than it went to the pant shop in and has to go back for another re-do. WTF.

I am amazed they can build what they build but then trip at the finish line. I have been a TSLA investor for a long while, I very much want them to succeed. They have got to fix this last little bit of BS because it's chewing up a lot of resources and holding them back. Selling to Tesla fans that will accept a few faults is one thing, but selling to the masses of people that just want the car and don't really care about the company or mission is going to be a mess.

 

[Stirfelt]

"Mine came with 3 alignment issues and 4 paint defects. I still like the car but its a pain to have to bring it in the shop right after I just got it."

Exactly ..... You shouldn't pay $50-70k for a new car .... and your first trip it to the SC to repair defects!!!

 

[EricUSC]

Please reject delivery if the paint us not up to your standards. My standards are that I can only accept a car with defects that can be corrected with detailing. Repaint is automatic reject. If enough people rejected delivery, Tesla would have fixed the problem by now. I have done it and will continue to do it until I get an acceptable car because I love Tesla and am doing this to help them build better cars.

 

[rainforest]

Please reject delivery if the paint us not up to your standards. My standards are that I can only accept a car with defects that can be corrected with detailing. Repaint is automatic reject. If enough people rejected delivery, Tesla would have fixed the problem by now. I have done it and will continue to do it until I get an acceptable car because I love Tesla and am doing this to help them build better cars.

I'm guessing most issues require repainting, other than dust nibs or swirling.

 

[EricUSC]

I'm guessing most issues require repainting, other than dust nibs or swirling.

Unfortunately this is true. Dust embedded on top of the clear coat can be fixed with detailing, but those under the paint can only be fixed with a repaint. Luckily the detailer at the MDR delivery center has been very helpful in helping me identify what can and can't be fixed with detailing.

 

[DrDabbles]

Just wanted to add some new first hand experience. I just took delivery of a red P3D+ and the paint looks great, there are no wonky panel gaps, all of the trim is aligned, and the interior was in fantastic condition. VIN is in the 0632XX range, manufacture date of 08/2018.