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Solar / Powerwall Considerations

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Currently have a power cut which had me wondering if anyone has had any degree of success with solar panels at home? Are they a fad? Can you make them worthwhile etc? The stories you typically hear are usually along the lines of the initial set up fees being so high its decades before any tangible benefit is realised.

Is there anyone fully charging cars off solar set ups at home or is it too insignificant a return to bother?
 
Can you get a 2 year playoff? Nope

Are you wanting to provide power backup during an extended power outage? Probably not the solution.

Want to be in location for 10+ years, or are in a location without power or want to help the environment, then step right up
 
Anecdotally installed costs have reduced a lot. I think PV looks very good right now. Batteries I'm not so sure though.

Say I pay about 16p/kWh for grid electric, and expect a kW of PV to generate 1,000kWh p.a., then if that kW cost me £800 and I used all of it it would pay me back in 5 years. If I halve the benefit of each kWh because I export some, can access better tariffs for some of my use etc, it's 10 years. Still not bad. In the likely event power prices rise those periods reduce a little.

Battery adds ability to keep some of that generated power so it saves you the 16p, rather than exporting it so it only earns you the export rate. My take on this is to note that it has a pure financial benefit but not really a sustainability one. I also see it as a separate investment decision - one does not require the other. For me, today I'm withholding the decision on a battery for a year or more. In the context of a few kW of PV the price of the battery is also big.

You can also reactively divert power that would otherwise be exported into a hot water tank, of course, achieving some of the battery benefit. Ditto EV. See myenergi/immersun.
 
step right up

Your latitude is 34 North ... the whole of UK is above the 49th parallel so different ball of chalk here, in the payback sense.

solar panels at home? Are they a fad?

Definitely not a fad ... prime agricultural land around here is smothered in them, probably on 30 year contract, certainly 20 year :( So farmers must be making more money sat in armchairs than driving a Tractor and Combine around the fields growing Wheat ...

The Feed In Tariff government handout has gone (for new installs) and there is talk (maybe its actually policy by now?) of removing the 5% VAT rate in the Autumn - so if you are going to do it don't delay.

But this usually comes down to doing something for the planet, not your pocket. If you are in your house for a long time then payback is probably OK, particularly if you attach a value to the fringe benefits (e.g no power cuts)

Price of PV panels came down significantly last Autumn (change to import duty I think ...) so although FIT has gone panels are cheaper - so Payback-Maths may well be about-the-same.

You still get paid for Export to the Grid, but its not-a-lot. That used to work by self-declaration - you read the PV Meter [how much you have generated] and you get 50% of that as your "Assumed export" (but now you might have to install an Export Meter :( ). if you are out to work Mon-Fri then presumably the only thing on in your house is Fridge/Freezer, and you will exporting 99% and getting paid 50% :( ... you can get devices that will turn on your immersion when you are generating more than you are using, so then you export 0% but still get paid 50% export assumption :)

If you are working from home, able to charge your car at home during the day (Zappi wall-charger can charge your car only when excess solar PV available) then you can probably use 100% of what you generate, by one means or the other.

Insolation ("Power of the sun falling on e.g. your roof") is 90% less in mid winter (at UK latitude), so you will get the best part of f-all in Winter. So forget about using PV to supplement winter heating (whereas if you were in USA latitude that would be a no-brainer)

Regs vary, but in essence you can export what 16 panels will generate. If you have more than 16 panels then a) maybe they will let you export more (infrastructure near you can "shift" the excess, so a cement works next door might be a reason :p), OR you limit what you export (pointless unless you can "use" the remainder ... or store in a static-storage-battery / car)

if you have a Battery THEN you might decide to put in loads-of-panels - if your roof is big enough. Then your aim would be to generate 100% of your Summer usage, perhaps excluding the Car (UNLESS you ARE home during the weekday) [it makes little sense to go PV->PowerWall->HouseWiring->CarBattery ... there are losses all along the way ... but that would be fine to use up occasional over-generation, or for extra-Green-back-patting :) )

NOTE: All my money-numbers are off-top-of-head guess

Battery is £5K plus £2.5-3K install. I don't know if one is enough to run your house, if you have a large house or loads of power-hungry stuff (Servers, always-on home entertainment ) then "no". I think install cost s about the same for 2x powerwalls as 1x ... and if you install PV at same time as PowerWall(s) you get the 5% on all them too (my guy will install you a very tiny PV panel if you want a power wall installed ... my guess is Your Guy would too :) )

PV on the roof, with scaffolding, my guess £10K. (You can ground-mount if you have space / field / etc.)

Payback:

So you now have, lets assume, 75% reduction in electricity bills - 100% in Summer, not much in Winter. You now buy (and store) whatever electricity you DO use at the cheapest rate - so you can have Octopus Go, or whatever, with a 5p unit cost between midnight-and-4AM (crucial to avoid using any electricity at their Peak rate, which is "evening when cooking", so you need battery to achieve that). So you are saving 10-15p a unit when you DO buy Juice from the grid.

So assume you generate (and save) 75% of you annual electricity bill, and for the remaining 25% you get that at, say, 50% discount. How much is that? (Big house / big user works better here :) )

You have paid £10K + (£5K + £2.5K) for the Gear
You are saving £X per annum

Could you get that return on your money with your current investments? if not then JFDI :)

(If you would have to borrow the money then forget the whole thing)

Side benefit: The Battery will run the house during a power cut. It is not (AFAIK) guaranteed to switch over fast enough to prevent a computer rebooting (i.e it is not a UPS, or at least "not yet, in UK" although I think it can be in USA), but in practice it does switch over fast enough - i.e. before power-supply capacitors in Computers lose their charge.

P.S. South facing roof best, but West is almost as good (generating peak later in the day, which will coincide with when you come home in Summer), and you can also do a combination East-West which will give you peak from East in the morning and West in the afternoon, so overall a lower spike than South facing. But with battery it is moot, you'll store any excess however generated, and in that case South is (marginally) better.

If you have trees that cast a shadow on the roof then forget it.
 
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Can you fully charge a car from a solar system in the UK?

Well, of course it depends on your mileage and size of solar installation, but for typical mileage and typical domestic solar, I would say not fully, but you can do quite a bit of offsetting in spring, summer and autumn.

I have typical roof 4kW solar PV array (no battery), south-facing and it generates about 3500kWh per year.

From April to October, we generate 300-400kWh per month, peaking at 550+ kWh in the sunnier months. But the winter months can easily generate less than 150kWh and the last 4 Decembers haven’t topped 70kWh!

For a Model S, you get around 3 miles per kWh charged.

Obviously the power generated by solar gradually ramps up during the morning, peaks around noon and tapers in the afternoon.

Without a battery, to *totally* offset the charging power you need to be generating at least ~1250W as the minimum charging current is 5A. (Annoyingly Tesla don’t let you change the charging current remotely, so you can’t program it to adapt to the solar generation...)

On a cloudless sunny summer day, I can charge at 8A to 10A for about 7 hours at basically no cost, adding 35-40 miles of range. At a purchase price of 16p per kWh, I’m saving maybe £1.50-£2.

Of course, this assumes your car is at home when it’s sunny!

Deep winter - basically forget it. You can do a few hours of 5A charging for free, around noon on a crisp sunny day. But I’d probably time the washing machine for then instead

I’d be interested to learn how it has worked out for anyone with a battery system. I’ve thought a lot about it and we just don’t use enough electricity / drive enough to get a payback in any reasonable time.
 
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we just don’t use enough electricity / drive enough to get a payback in any reasonable time.

A decade ago we started "going green". I started with reading the meter once a week and putting it in a spreadhseet, and then we were able to measure our attempts at reducing usage. We put those awful slow-to-get-bright fluorescent-tube replacement bulbs in, and now all our bulbs are LED and only a couple of Watts and of course no one has lousy inefficient Incandescent bulbs any more. We also put Timers on things that didn't need to be always-one, and ran dishwasher etc. overnight on Economy-7 ...

... we reduced our electricity consumption by 50% :) but that makes the payback on PV less attractive than it was back then ...

... but ... once you have PV + Battery you can use as much as you like. My garden lights are only on for a couple of hours at night (when we might notice them if we look out of the window) whereas they could be on "from dusk until bedtime" ...

And all my Home Entertainment is off when not in use, and the DVD player that is rarely used ... except that when we do use it we then take weeks before we then remember to turn it off !!

So there might be some justification to deliberately use more, but still be Green, if you have own-supply and battery.

But that is most definitely Man Maths rather than payback Maths :)
 
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Was tempted to do a solar install. Almost pulled the trigger last year, then the wife decided she’ll probably want to move in the next few years so the ship has sailed for now.

Probably not a bad thing as I would like to get some batteries for the system also and I’m pretty sure the price of those will drop significantly in the next few years as the technology becomes more widespread.
 
Currently have a power cut which had me wondering if anyone has had any degree of success with solar panels at home? Are they a fad? Can you make them worthwhile etc? The stories you typically hear are usually along the lines of the initial set up fees being so high its decades before any tangible benefit is realised.

Is there anyone fully charging cars off solar set ups at home or is it too insignificant a return to bother?
Hi LEE3 been driving a Tesla for over 4 years now got solar and a powerwall 2 fitted 2 years ago and I am pretty much quids in here’s why I get FIT payments for my generation and also what I put up the grid which is as little as possible as I charge my car off my solar from March until September which is free fuel saving around £2500 which I would have spent on Diesel also my electricity bill per annum is £70 thus saving my previous bills which were £1400 for electricity before solar so , I also have a solar I boost which does all my hot water from May until September which saves my gas bill by about £300 per annum so in total saving per year to date are £4200 my wife will be getting her new model 3 end of the month (day 1 reservation holder 2016) and also tesla owner which will save a further £1700 per year as no diesel required for her car now so per annum savings just under£6000 so my power wall and solar installation costs were approximately £14000 by this time next year all paid off just over a 3 year pay back ps my solar is just shy of 10 kw of PV forgot to mention tesla now do an island which will now allow the powerwall 2 to power use house up to a max output of 5 kw absolutely fine for tv lights and heating etc only struggles when tumble driers etc ar3 switched on so every one that says it’s not worth the money is talking bollocks I have the data to prove everything the key is to put up at least 10 kw of Pv for it to work every year for the PST 2 years I have been approx 94% off grid which is remarkable when I charge my car I reduce my amperage on my charging screen to about 15amps thus only pulling 4kw so when the sun is shinning I am powering my house charging my powerwall 2 and charging my car it’s awsome and getting paid for the next 20 years through my FIT payments if you would like more detailed data I would be happy to answer any questions you have
 
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Hi LEE3 been driving a Tesla for over 4 years now got solar and a powerwall 2 fitted 2 years ago and I am pretty much quids in here’s why I get FIT payments for my generation and also what I put up the grid which is as little as possible as I charge my car off my solar from March until September which is free fuel saving around £2500 which I would have spent on Diesel also my electricity bill per annum is £70 thus saving my previous bills which were £1400 for electricity before solar so , I also have a solar I boost which does all my hot water from May until September which saves my gas bill by about £300 per annum so in total saving per year to date are £4200 my wife will be getting her new model 3 end of the month (day 1 reservation holder 2016) and also tesla owner which will save a further £1700 per year as no diesel required for her car now so per annum savings just under£6000 so my power wall and solar installation costs were approximately £14000 by this time next year all paid off just over a 3 year pay back ps my solar is just shy of 10 kw of PV forgot to mention tesla now do an island which will now allow the powerwall 2 to power use house up to a max output of 5 kw absolutely fine for tv lights and heating etc only struggles when tumble driers etc ar3 switched on so every one that says it’s not worth the money is talking bollocks I have the data to prove everything the key is to put up at least 10 kw of Pv for it to work every year for the PST 2 years I have been approx 94% off grid which is remarkable when I charge my car I reduce my amperage on my charging screen to about 15amps thus only pulling 4kw so when the sun is shinning I am powering my house charging my powerwall 2 and charging my car it’s awsome and getting paid for the next 20 years through my FIT payments if you would like more detailed data I would be happy to answer any questions you have

Thats amazing. Congrats on that! I need to make some notes on that arrangement.
 
I have a 4kw system.just recently got a powervault 3 8kw battery fitted.(5k)
Luckily I get paid 14pence/ kw fit rate.
Payback on my solar is approx 10 years maybe sooner as I divert all extra solar to my hot water cylinder with an immersun diverter.great invention.saves the gas being on also to heat hot water.
I don’t really have that much extra left to charge my powervault and will be downgrading to a 4 kw battery.
I don’t really have that much extra to charge my Tesla either maybe an extra 3 %.
I get paid around £450-£500 a year in fit payments.
The electricity bill is at least halved.probably save in total £800/year
Winter is very poor some days only get 1/4 kw on the worst days.
Best summer days upto 25kw but these are rare.
Averaging about 15kw per day at the moment.
My system cost £8000 with individual inverters on each panel (enphase)
Probably not worth it now as fit payment has gone.
I’ve had my system for 4 years.
Due to free public charging in scotland I don’t really bother charging at home.
 
saving around £2500 which I would have spent on Diesel

Slight Man maths there (with which I have no problem ... but ... :) )

Fuel £1.30 per Litre * 4.54 Litres-per-Gallon / 50 MPG = 11.8p per mile

Electricity at 15p per unit and 3 miles per kWh = 5p per mile
Electricity at 6p per unit (cheapest available Economy-7 or similar) = 2p per mile

So switching Diesel to EV you would have saved at worst 57% of your £2500, and at best 83% ... even more if your Diesel was worse than 50 MPG

But, yeah, your experience is a great use-case for PV + Battery.

Bottom line:

Don't borrow the money to pay for it
Avoid exporting a single unit e.g. by installing immersun / battery and/or car charger capable of diverting excess "PV to the EV" :)

I don’t really have that much extra left to charge my powervault and will be downgrading to a 4 kw battery.

Could you buy Off Peak (overnight) electricity (and charge battery)? Or would you not actually use it during the day?

Probably not worth it now as fit payment has gone.

PV Panel costs have fallen, so capital-outlay less, although FIT payments = £0 ... might work out OK

Due to free public charging in scotland I don’t really bother charging at home.

Nothing against your usage, but I hate anything that is free ... "cheap" is fine; Cheap gets more respect / less abuse than Free ... </SoapBox>
 
Slight Man maths there (with which I have no problem ... but ... :) )

Fuel £1.30 per Litre * 4.54 Litres-per-Gallon / 50 MPG = 11.8p per mile

Electricity at 15p per unit and 3 miles per kWh = 5p per mile
Electricity at 6p per unit (cheapest available Economy-7 or similar) = 2p per mile

So switching Diesel to EV you would have saved at worst 57% of your £2500, and at best 83% ... even more if your Diesel was worse than 50 MPG

But, yeah, your experience is a great use-case for PV + Battery.

Bottom line:

Don't borrow the money to pay for it
Avoid exporting a single unit e.g. by installing immersun / battery and/or car charger capable of diverting excess "PV to the EV" :)



Could you buy Off Peak (overnight) electricity (and charge battery)? Or would you not actually use it during the day?



PV Panel costs have fallen, so capital-outlay less, although FIT payments = £0 ... might work out OK



Nothing against your usage, but I hate anything that is free ... "cheap" is fine; Cheap gets more respect / less abuse than Free ... </SoapBox>
Nothing wrong with my maths may to September mileage 22,000 miles if this was a diesel it would be approximately £2500 for a diesel which my a6 before my model s was max 48 mpg now it costs nothing because I charge from solar my costs that I posted were conservative if you would like exact savings to the penny then I can furnish all my data to anyone who requires it nonetheless 3 and a half year payback on system is fantastic and well worth the investment fuel and energy costs are only going to increase in the future due to inflation so if I really scrutinised my numbers more I would factor in inflation aswell my maths are as follows I never believe auto manufacturers with their mpg figures their usually way out because of winter and summer more diesel in winter and less in summer my Audi was getting about average 600 miles to a tank to fill my car up was between £75 to £85 which cost me exactly £2745 on the lower end these costs were 2 years ago because I have not been to a petrol station to fill my car up only charging from solar
 
if this was a diesel it would be approximately £2500 for a diesel which my a6 before my model s was max 48 mpg now it costs nothing because I charge from solar my costs

Sorry, explained myself badly, I wasn't questioning the accuracy of your figures in any way.

The point I was cogitating is that

a) you reduced your fuel cost by changing from Diesel to EV
b) charging your EV from PV rather than from GRID saves you the GRID cost

I think it is Man Maths to include (a) in your payback for PV because it has nothing to do with PV, whereas (b) is most definitely a saving from PV

Your decision to change ICE to EV is saving you £2,500 a year, less the £500 electricity cost (lets say 25,000 miles = 7,333 kWh = £500)
PV is saving you the £500 electricity cost

As I said I have no difficulty with your justification but other folk might need to consider that. In my case using the same justification would definitely be a stretch -

PV installed 6 years ago
EV bought 3 years ago. Car is at work during the day and charged overnight (on Economy-7)

How do I justify the cost of PowerWall to charge the car?

1. Reduction in electricity bill - that is reduction in E7 bill, e.g. 7.5p per unit. if I charged 100% from PV stored in PowerWall and zero from E7 that would save £750 p.a. PowerWall is, say, £7,500 installed - so 10 year payback, which isn't too bad.

2. Saving of £4,000 p.a. Diesel cost (for previous car). Payback < 2 years

To me #2 is Man Maths