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Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells

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There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
IMG_1736.jpeg


For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
IMG_1735.jpeg



As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
 
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I was always under the impression that low SoC is what killed batteries not high SoC

Example if your phone or tablet stays at 0% for too long it kills it and won’t even charge,
The battery management systems on cars are better and don't allow that low discharge which would cause damage. So practically aging happens at higher SOC in cars.

I wouldn't be surprised if some phone makers extend the allowable voltage ranges past what is optimal for battery life. There isn't much or any warranty protection on phone battery life compared to cars where it's a huge warranty expense.

from my own experience it always seemed like my phone had better battery life when I charged it to 100% everyday but if ever let the battery die a few times it seemed like my battery life started to get worse
What sort of phone?
 
As long as you have 1% then that’s fine? It’s just 0% that’s bad?
It’s a myth.

Just like @AlanSubie4Life said, it’s a non issue. I can expand that statement so you understand why.

To begin with, 0% is not totally empty.

100% is where to stop charge (even if its possible to charge them more)

0% is where to stop discharging (even if it is possible to discharge them more).

Lithium battery cells are made to be used between 100% and 0%, and there are no danger to do so.

This graph is not fantasy, its actual lithium battery cells like the ones in teslas tested for ten months in this case. There are literally hundreds of research tests, all showing the same thing. So what we se is fact.
IMG_4553.jpeg

For normal temps, just look at the blue line.
The X-axis shows the SOC and the vertical Y-axis shows the capacity after the 10 month test. The higher the better.

Lithium batteries do not like *overdischarge*. But even that aint a big deal for limited overdischarge.

0% is 2.5V/cell on our lithium ions. Due to the buffer 0% displayed are about 3-3.1V on our Teslas.

These cells are discharged to the voltage seen below. The left most 2.7V is not overdischarged, the second from the left (1.5V) is overdischarged to about half the cell voltage, and after ~150cycles there are no big differences to the cells discharged to 0%.
The two to the right was discharged to 0.0V and even negative volts, and virtually broke immediately.
IMG_6952.jpeg


In hour Teslas, the BMS protects the cells from overdischarge. The battery shuts itself of at the safe 0% in the first graph and can not be connected again unless charged.

When we see 0% on the screen there is a 4.5% buffer hidden so the real SOC is 4.5% which is faaaaaar away from anything bad.

As for cycles at low SOC I made a post the other day that showed (from actual model 3 cells tested) that they could do 3000FCE when cycled 10-0% displayed SOC on Teslas and loosing 17.5% capacity from that.
3000 FCE are the same as 30.000 10-0% cycles and would give ~ 1.2 million kilometers driving, so the annual degradation from these cycles would be 0.3% for an average driven car.

So even the cyclic aging very close to 0% on the screen is not bad.

“Bad below 20%” is a myth.
 
It’s a myth.

Just like @AlanSubie4Life said, it’s a non issue. I can expand that statement so you understand why.

To begin with, 0% is not totally empty.

100% is where to stop charge (even if its possible to charge them more)

0% is where to stop discharging (even if it is possible to discharge them more).

Lithium battery cells are made to be used between 100% and 0%, and there are no danger to do so.

This graph is not fantasy, its actual lithium battery cells like the ones in teslas tested for ten months in this case. There are literally hundreds of research tests, all showing the same thing. So what we se is fact.
View attachment 1023474
For normal temps, just look at the blue line.
The X-axis shows the SOC and the vertical Y-axis shows the capacity after the 10 month test. The higher the better.

Lithium batteries do not like *overdischarge*. But even that aint a big deal for limited overdischarge.

0% is 2.5V/cell on our lithium ions. Due to the buffer 0% displayed are about 3-3.1V on our Teslas.

These cells are discharged to the voltage seen below. The left most 2.7V is not overdischarged, the second from the left (1.5V) is overdischarged to about half the cell voltage, and after ~150cycles there are no big differences to the cells discharged to 0%.
The two to the right was discharged to 0.0V and even negative volts, and virtually broke immediately.
View attachment 1023476

In hour Teslas, the BMS protects the cells from overdischarge. The battery shuts itself of at the safe 0% in the first graph and can not be connected again unless charged.

When we see 0% on the screen there is a 4.5% buffer hidden so the real SOC is 4.5% which is faaaaaar away from anything bad.

As for cycles at low SOC I made a post the other day that showed (from actual model 3 cells tested) that they could do 3000FCE when cycled 10-0% displayed SOC on Teslas and loosing 17.5% capacity from that.
3000 FCE are the same as 30.000 10-0% cycles and would give ~ 1.2 million kilometers driving, so the annual degradation from these cycles would be 0.3% for an average driven car.

So even the cyclic aging very close to 0% on the screen is not bad.

“Bad below 20%” is a myth.
What do you think of my current degradation of 8 - 8.5% with 29k miles and 1.5 years old? Is this within an average or is it really bad
 
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Do you live anywhere warm?

The average would be about 25C cell temp and this would *cost* about 6.5-7% from calendar aging the first 1.5 years from manufacturing date. The cyclic aging might be about 1%.
South east 95 - 100 degree days in the summer, the other 9 months of year are pretty mild

What you say sounds like I’m right in line where it should be though or close
 
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(Reaching 20% degradation will set the battery to the degradation where they might start to behave unpredictable and 20% is also the standard where litjium ion batterys are comsidered to be consumed and need to be changed.
You most probably could have the pack longer but afyer passing 20% degradation you do not know
Is the unpredictability after 20% degradation simply that we haven’t tested below 20% or we’ve tested and found the battery to be unpredictable (i.e. inconsistent)?
 
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Is the unpredictability after 20% degradation simply that we haven’t tested below 20% or we’ve tested and found the battery to be unpredictable (i.e. inconsistent)?
No.

In most cases the tests show a drop downwards at 20% or so.
I could give about 100 examples of that.
In some cases the cells do not ”break” at 20% degradation but the rest of the life is much less predictable. May continue to work, may droop fast.

IMG_1552.png

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My iphone just started to have too short range for my daily use. The drop has neen very fast the few weeks.
You’d be able to guess the battery heath within a few percent then?

I actually ordered a new batt yesterday
IMG_7740.jpeg


For cars with a good battery capacity like Teslas the load on the battery is low (C-rate low).
This means they probably do not fall of exactly at 80%. They might work well longer but the predictability is much lower so I would not get a EV with 20% degradation.
If you have a car simce long time that reach 20% you do not need to change the battery but I guess it would be wise to mentally prepare for that day…
 
Yea I thought Tesla considered 30% as needs to be replaced not 20%
They warrant 70% after 8 years.
This does not mean that you have a slow degradation down to 70%.
What it really means is that when you reach 70%, the battery most certainly is worn out.

I guess most cars start getting problems before 30%. As degradation often is unpredictable after 20% loss, there might be a few cells that stops working well together with the others.

The batteries in the EV’s arent really different from others so the industry standard is still valid. The difference is that because of the nice handling with low C-rates they might live longer.
 
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They warrant 70% after 8 years.
This does not mean that you have a slow degradation down to 70%.
What it really means is that when you reach 70%, the battery most certainly is worn out.

I guess most cars start getting problems before 30%. As degradation often is unpredictable after 20% loss, there might be a few cells that stops working well together with the others.

The batteries in the EV’s arent really different from others so the industry standard is still valid. The difference is that because of the nice handling with low C-rates they might live longer.

There are some people that have used their battery all the way to 30% degradation like this guy though
 
No.

In most cases the tests show a drop downwards at 20% or so.
I could give about 100 examples of that.
In some cases the cells do not ”break” at 20% degradation but the rest of the life is much less predictable. May continue to work, may droop fast.

View attachment 1023921
View attachment 1023922

My iphone just started to have too short range for my daily use. The drop has neen very fast the few weeks.
You’d be able to guess the battery heath within a few percent then?

I actually ordered a new batt yesterday
View attachment 1023925

For cars with a good battery capacity like Teslas the load on the battery is low (C-rate low).
This means they probably do not fall of exactly at 80%. They might work well longer but the predictability is much lower so I would not get a EV with 20% degradation.
If you have a car simce long time that reach 20% you do not need to change the battery but I guess it would be wise to mentally prepare for that day…
So I’m guessing you don’t apply the low SoC strategy with your phone? 😉
 
How long before the 0% cells actually reach zero volts due to self-discharge? I'm assuming it's weeks or months.
In general cells recover voltage. The higher the load the higher the droop was, so the more voltage recovers when the cells are at rest.

The self discharge is very low at low SOC, and as the cells recover voltage there most probably will take very long time until they are low enough to get damaged.

The cells I used for own tests that I left at 2.5V had more than 2.5V after ~ 2 months when I cycled and retested capacity.

I do not think we should test this on real HV-packs. We have data from packs being at below 0% for long tine without harm, so if it happens to us we do not need to worry though.
So I’m guessing you don’t apply the low SoC strategy with your phone? 😉
No, as DrChaos said, theres no setting for that. If there was, I would start with 60% or so on a new batt/phone.

I have done a lot of partial charges when driving to/ from my last job and my last phone kept the battery nice for several years, it helped with reducing degradation.

My new job, standing by all day for going on a ambulance helicopter missions gives a lot of time to surf on the phone, and it is nice to have capacity to use the phone during the missions ( photos/ filming etc) so I need 100% these days.
I went from an average daily use below 3 hrs to ~ 5h with the new job. :oops:

It’s a iPhone 12 Pro - 3 years old so more or less >1000 cycles 100% - low SOC.

Also, a new battery or even a new phone is not that expensive. The battery is not expensive and easy to change.
 
The range shown at 100% in 3/Y and newer S/X is counting on the whole battery capacity.
You can easy check this via the energy graph.

I havent dug into older S with fixed buffer size.
For the newer S/X and the 3/Y the buffer is ”created” by that the cars SOC counting has 4.5% of the total cap. Below zero which means each percent displayed SOC is 0.955 real percentage.
Mu old Model S 70D 2015.10 seems to use Nominal kWh / 0,190 kWh/km or Nominal kWh / 0,150 kWh/km as well, when showing both Typical and Rated Range.

I base/argue for these algorithms, by choosing the algorithm that give the least StdDev over multiple SoC :)
And a confirmation calculation the other way around shows, that if I were to yse the Useable energy instead of the Nominal energy, then the kWh/RatedKm and kWh/TypicalKm is way of :)

1710250811599.png


I will redo the calculations with the broader SoC range, that I have now, I did above calcultaion soon after buying ScanMyTesla and only took data when car had been parked for some hours. And at that time I only had data from Daily Commutes, which ofcourse was performed at 25% - 65% as to always have my Classic NCA battery SoC below 55% when parked over night or when Working From Home :)

As soon as Peter Keil published his original Diploma-Engineer-Thesis (in 2017?) I adopted long time parking always below 55% SoC

Comment to AAKE: I sincerely think that a part of the apparant Calendar Aging capacity loss at SoC above 55-60% is Recoverable Anode Overhang Capacity Loss. I base that on the potential needed to produce Overhang Capacity loss is just at the same voltages where the dramatic stuff happens.

I am convinced that Peter did not know this and he is excused, because Anode Overhang recovery was discovered/analyzed AFTER he produced his thesis.

I sincerely hope that some of the recently documented Calendar Aging of SiliconDoped 2170 at 80% is as well recoverable, else the new Tesla recommandation to use 80% for Daily Commute could prove a bad strategy :)

1710252086329.png
 
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Mu old Model S 70D 2015.10 seems to use Nominal kWh / 0,190 kWh/km or Nominal kWh / 0,150 kWh/km as well, when showing both Typical and Rated Range.

As for Tessie being occasionally 'wrong' on Initial Usefull Capacity, I have filed a 'bug' report to a TeslaMate Opensource Feature provider, whoc has developed a Tessie similar Battery Health Page, which was wrong for the older Model S/X, because they have both a Typical and a Rated Range and when mixing the wrong numbers my initial Capacity would be 83.9 kWh which is a lot for a Model S 70, with only 71,2kWh/68,8kWh pnboard initially. The fixed fixed TeslaMate Battery Healt is not released yet, but I have the developers test graph and it shows this for my 70D:

1710252708229.png


As can be seen, TeslaMate developers assumes (as did Tessie) the very natural idea, that Range should be calculated based on Usable Capacity. So they calculate that when I adopted TeslaMate approx 2.5 years ago, my capacity was 66.1 kWh and now it is 65.2 kWh, so a degradation of 1.3%.

I think their calculation is okay and makes sense, but cannot be compared with Tesla internal numbers.
 
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As for Tessie being occasionally 'wrong' on Initial Usefull Capacity, I have filed a 'bug' report to a TeslaMate Opensource Feature provider, whoc has developed a Tessie similar Battery Health Page, which was wrong for the older Model S/X, because they have both a Typical and a Rated Range and when mixing the wrong numbers my initial Capacity would be 83.9 kWh which is a lot for a Model S 70, with only 71,2kWh/68,8kWh pnboard initially. The fixed fixed TeslaMate Battery Healt is not released yet, but I have the developers test graph and it shows this for my 70D:

View attachment 1027041

As can be seen, TeslaMate developers assumes (as did Tessie) the very natural idea, that Range should be calculated based on Usable Capacity. So they calculate that when I adopted TeslaMate approx 2.5 years ago, my capacity was 66.1 kWh and now it is 65.2 kWh, so a degradation of 1.3%.

I think their calculation is okay and makes sense, but cannot be compared with Tesla internal numbers.
I am not sure how TeslaMate derives those capacity numbers but they are incorrect. The 70D started at 68.88 kWh nominal full pack with a 4.0 kWh buffer.
So usable new was 64.88 kWh. My verification of this is from TM-Spy which is CANBUS data, the same as SMT.

However, rated range is calculated using nominal full pack so things can be very confusing regarding the numbers.
 
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