Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Wiki SpaceX Manifest and Launch Cadence

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
That is a mind blowing rate of increase when you consider we are talking about launching big rockets to orbit!

When Starship starts flying it seems possible that launch frequency could decrease because payload capacity per launch will be so much greater.

But then once Mars colonization launches ramp up, frequency will go back up again, at least in the years when launches to Mars occur.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grendal
Another interesting chart meant to highlight the impact Falcon has had on the space industry. Not factoring Starlink and federal launches from China, Russia, and Japan (but not US government launches) better normalizes the data to missions that had the ability to be sourced from multiple suppliers.

The unfortunate conclusion is that there's not a huge increase in missions or people building more satellites, at least yet. What's really happened since Falcon's introduction is a siphoning of missions from other providers.

1680028218372.png
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Grendal
Given the lead time to build satellites for many players appears to be a several year thing (another area where SpaceX's pace is nuts), I wonder if the production will increase now that the barrier for entry in terms of launch costs have fallen, and ae on pace to do so through Starship's debut.

In other words, it may take time for the pipeline to fill to a higher volume.
 
...now that the barrier for entry in terms of launch costs have fallen...

Beating the horse I've been beating for years here now, that's just not reality. The cost to get to space has not decreased to any material degree as a result of F9; the cost to get to space has not fallen below any kind of threshold that step functions any kind of space revolution. Believe me, I wish that wasn't true. It would make my job a lot easier.

Rather, your perspective is analogous to saying "The cost barrier to owning an X-plaid has really fallen since Tesla's price reductions". That's ridiculous of course, as it's still a $110k vehicle.

What Falcon has done exceptionally is increase the timely accessibility to space, and THAT'S its major differentiator over other launchers. Even before Starlink but especially these days with half the launches being Starlink, the F9 manifest buffer is so deep that a customer has zero concerns with launching when they want to launch, regardless of what kind of shuffling they or other missions on the manifest do. That doesn't happen with other LSPs who only make 5 things a year (or whatever). Save for when The Local Man wants to huck something into space, if you're the third launch from now, you're the third launch from now. If the person in front of you delays 2 months, you delay 2 months.

But, like the model X analogy, it's not new customers finding a product affordable that they once found cost prohibitive, it's the existing [potential] customer demographic funneling their industry solicitation because falcon provides an [often] leaps and bounds more credible service than the others. Saving some money in the process is obviously an incentive (and a nice upside) but it's not a needle mover.

Seriously, just do the math.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grendal
Doesn't this show that Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy (the to bottom circles on the cost axis) have reduced costs by ~5X since they came online?

Space Launch to Low Earth Orbit: How Much Does It Cost?
I get what bxr-140 is commenting about. The satellite companies aren't going "hay, I'm saving $20 million in launch costs. So I'll make a few more satellites to put up." They would put up the satellites anyway with the $20 million extra price. However, putting it up in April of 2023 just after the satellite completed testing is more important. If there is a four month delay because testing showed that there was something that needed to be corrected or adjusted and SpaceX could still fit the launch into the schedule and get it up after the correction is complete is a huge difference.

That said, and bxr-140 could probably correct me if I'm wrong, is that the cube-sat and small sat makers are able to put up a lot more because of SpaceX's Transport launches. That market has blossomed under SpaceX. For those that can afford it, you've got Electron for the "it needs to go right here in orbit" high end cube/small sat launches.
 
Doesn't this show that Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy (the to bottom circles on the cost axis) have reduced costs by ~5X since they came online?

No. FWIW that’s actually a difficult chart from which to extrapolate practical results. Normalizing dollars doesn’t really get to the bottom line, and its an over-read to suggest reduction over time is a significant function of Falcon 9. Ariane 5, for instance, is not and has never been 5x the price of Falcon, nor has its price been driven down 5x since Falcon’s introduction.

Minding the double negative, that is not to say the competitors haven’t cut their prices (to varying degrees) as a direct attempt to better compete with falcon, mind. They of course have. But we’re talking about the competitors cutting margins or finding cost efficiencies by small percentages.

It’s also important to understand is that cost per kg of a launcher doesn’t really matter when it comes down to a customer buying a rocket or even a number of rockets. The only thing that matters is the price of the launch service. Doesn’t matter if you’re launching 1 or 300 sats, 1T or 100T worth of stuff…what matters is the price to get your *sugar* on orbit.

For a basic, practical hypothetical, consider a very basic, big GEO. Call it $200M for the satellite (for reference, Viasat-3 is reported to be $650M), and 4-5T mass. That calls for an ASDS falcon at $67M. Or…that GEO could ride as a co-passenger on a $200M dual stack Ariane 5 (let’s call the A5 price $120M just to be really conservative).

Not factoring any other programmatic costs, that maths out to a ~20% stupid tax to fly on Ariane. Nobody’s kicking 20% out of bed of course, but that’s not a game-changing savings for that operator. That’s a nice upside. The fact that Ariane only launches like 5 times a year (or something) right now is the real differentiator.

For a different hypothetical, let’s look at Rivada. They’re [supposedly] building 300x 500kg sats for $2.3B, and have secured 12 F9 launches. Their other option would be to fly on [a very conservative] 8 $200M Ariane 5’s. Factor in LEAST $500M for infrastructure to operate the constellation in either case (which is way optimistic) and your Ariane stupid tax is ~21%. Again that’s for sure real money, but nobody is putting go/nogo of a $4B+ program on an additional 21% program cost.

While A5 is real, A5 is of course 25 years old. The same conservative Rivada comparison with A64 numbers puts the Ariane stupid tax at ~5%. Obviously there's plenty of room for F9 to drop prices as the new set of launchers comes on line, but again the point is that we're not talking game changing dollars here. We're talking pleasant upside.
 
No. FWIW that’s actually a difficult chart from which to extrapolate practical results. Normalizing dollars doesn’t really get to the bottom line, and its an over-read to suggest reduction over time is a significant function of Falcon 9. Ariane 5, for instance, is not and has never been 5x the price of Falcon, nor has its price been driven down 5x since Falcon’s introduction.

I should have posted the point I was addressing in posting that chart. It was your assertion that:

The cost to get to space has not decreased to any material degree as a result of F9...

It seems that just about every article I can find on space launch (typically as per Kg to orbit) indicate launch costs have decreased as a result of the introduction of Falcon 9, and the path to Falcon heavy takes that even further. Another example from this article:

1*Eh6VgKV6h_elKFsWR9hhHw.png


Certainly launch prices aren't' the only factor to getting a bird in to space, thus there are lots of other considerations to take in to account, as you rightly point out. But it certainly would seem that SpaceX has helped reduce launch cost "to a material degree", and has a path to further do so...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grendal
I get what bxr-140 is commenting about. The satellite companies aren't going "hay, I'm saving $20 million in launch costs. So I'll make a few more satellites to put up." They would put up the satellites anyway with the $20 million extra price. However, putting it up in April of 2023 just after the satellite completed testing is more important. If there is a four month delay because testing showed that there was something that needed to be corrected or adjusted and SpaceX could still fit the launch into the schedule and get it up after the correction is complete is a huge difference.

That said, and bxr-140 could probably correct me if I'm wrong, is that the cube-sat and small sat makers are able to put up a lot more because of SpaceX's Transport launches. That market has blossomed under SpaceX. For those that can afford it, you've got Electron for the "it needs to go right here in orbit" high end cube/small sat launches.
Yeah, I think that's a fair point being made... @bxr140 has pointed out several times that saving a few (10's of) millions of dollars in a 3/4 $billion program isn't a big deal in that kind of scenario.

But I think the point being made by several is that launch cost is one of the significant barriers to space for many possible applications, many of which may not have even been considered before the reduction in cost the last few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grendal
I'm curious about the cost of a F9 launch, and the price of an F9 launch. Does SpaceX currently have huge margins, such that the cost for others to get to space could come way down as soon as a competitor exists?
SpaceX's pricing was $62M circa 2017 when F9 wasn't reusable. Today, they are getting 10+ flights out of a booster and charge $67M ...

From 2020:
Elon Musk touts low cost to insure SpaceX rockets as edge over competitors
In a briefing earlier this year, SpaceX director of vehicle integration Christopher Couluris said the company can “bring launches down to below $30 million per launch.”

″[The rocket] costs $28 million to launch it, that’s with everything,” Couluris said, adding that reusing the rockets is what is “bringing the price down.”
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Grendal
That said, and bxr-140 could probably correct me if I'm wrong, is that the cube-sat and small sat makers are able to put up a lot more because of SpaceX's Transport launches. That market has blossomed under SpaceX. For those that can afford it, you've got Electron for the "it needs to go right here in orbit" high end cube/small sat launches.

Sort of, yes. There's been a good (and increasing, as noted below) supply of cubesats and microsats independent of Transporter. For a while SpaceX wouldn't touch aggregator missions for fear of the cluster; the tipping point for SX was the *sugar* show (in SX's mind) of how SSO-A was run and just how much Spaceflight made (or at least, could have made) off that mission. As is typical with ElonCo SX has always run on the ragged edge of financials; Vacuuming up a bunch of the rideshare market with their Transporter product turned out to be pretty easy money.

And not to imply otherwise, there's definitely been an increase in new space entrants over the past decade (and a corollary uptick in the amount of stuff they're hucking into space, specifically cube and microsats--call it 10-100kg satellites). Main point is that you won't find anyone on Sand Hill making the case that Falcon 9 is anywhere close to a go/nogo for any of those entrants.

It seems that just about every article I can find on space launch (typically as per Kg to orbit) indicate launch costs have decreased as a result of the introduction of Falcon 9

If you're trying to make the case that Falcon 9 costs less than anything else, sure. Nobody's ever disputed that.

Obviously what I'm addressing is the long standing assertion that Falcon has somehow revolutionized the space industry by making it so affordable that a significant number of new entities can now enter space (or exiting entities can materially expand in space) where it was financially untenable for them to do so prior to Falcon.

Cool, so if that cost is real then maybe we see
~$40 million dollar launches if Neutron or Relativity space come online with similar offerings.
That might enable a lot of use cases that aren't currently viable.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see F9 RTLS prices drop below $50M as Neutron gets closer to flight. F9 obviously will still have the massive manifest advantage over Neutron so it's not like SX needs to open up a huge price gap, but I'd bet Elon will at least want price parity. Of course, the irony in SX dropping price to compete with Rocket Lab would be that the the cost of space access would drop because of Neutron. ;)

Even so, those kinds of $$$'s are still big enough that they won't really open up otherwise financially untenable space solutions. For sure that's really getting into big $$$'s and %'s of capital for big constellations. And if the industry figures out how to make a useful $50M GEO then the launch segment becomes a much more important element of the program cost. But...those numbers aren't low enough to be the catalyst for someone to sketch out a hair brain idea on the back of a napkin at The Bar.
 
If you're trying to make the case that Falcon 9 costs less than anything else, sure. Nobody's ever disputed that.

Ummm....

bxr140 said:
The cost to get to space has not decreased to any material degree as a result of F9...

I suppose given that "material" is subjective, one may argue that it doesn't meet the bar.

I'd say that Falcon 9 being over 3X cheaper per Kg than the next thing in it's class available in America is a material advance. It's not like Falcon 9 is just a few percentage points cheaeper...
 
Last edited:
  • Disagree
Reactions: bxr140
Since SpaceX just expended 3 cores in one launch, I thought I'd give a Falcon 9 core update:

Falcon 9 Standard Boosters
B1058.15 Currently retired until an extension is allowed past 15 launches
B1060.15 Currently retired until an extension is allowed past 15 launches
B1061.13
B1062.13
B1063.10 Vandenberg booster
B1067.10
B1069.6
B1071.8 Vandenberg Booster
B1072.0 New - Being held for Cygnus launch
B1073.8 Likely to be converted to FH side booster and may be expended
B1075.2 Vandenberg booster
B1076.4 Likely to be converted to FH side booster and may be expended
B1077.4
B1078.2
B1080.0 Axiom 2 booster

Falcon Heavy Exclusive Cores and Boosters
B1064.2 Side - USSF-52 and Psyche
B1065.2 Side - USSF-52 and Psyche
B1074.0 Core - USSF 52
B1079.0 Core - Jupiter 3/Echostar 24
B1084.0 Core - Psyche