Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

SpaceX vs. Everyone - ULA, NG, Boeing, Lockheed, etc.

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I'm still learning about this industry and particularly satellite construction. I went to chat GPT to get a breakdown of costs. Amusingly it told me that Starlinks cost an estimated $250k and use as their satellite bus the Dragon Spacecraft which costs $300M. Anyway, it appears, and quite possibly equally wrong, that power, solar panels and electronics are around $40M for a GEOSAT, the Bus is $50M and the "Payload" is $50-$150.

If a starling is $250k, that's a HUGE savings, for what you call a "crap" satellite, but the failure rate for Starlinks over 5 years seems to be (anecdotally) around %5? Of course I am comparing Apples and Oranges.

To be clear I'm not calling the SL sats crap, I'm saying they fall WAY short of the bar from the perspective of a traditionally spec’ed satellite. And also to be clear, that's not a slight--SX has simply changed the way the bar gets constructed. Traditionally the number of nodes in a space system is so low (including N=1) such that, to turn the phrase, failure of any particular node really isn't an acceptable option. SX has simply created so many nodes that the reliability/lifetime concern fully shifts from thinking about the actual health of that satellite to solely thinking about the statistical health of that constellation--which to date is basically unheard of. (Even the existing big constellations like Iridium generally need all satellites operational, and failures are a big deal) That logic makes a lot of sense to all of us (I assume) but it does come at a cost that's unfortunately hard for non-space folks to understand and at a cost that’s pretty much untenable until you get to mega-constellation territory. Many many hundreds of sats, at least.

So...yes, a traditional GEO sat costs hundreds of millions of dollars, but you also can't compare the cost of a traditional sat directly with the cost of a starlink sat. You need to go up to the service level to do the comparison. Maybe the best case study right now is Viasat, who are building 1+ TBPS sats for their Viasat-3 constellation.

Bear with me as I'm going to do way more numbersing than anyone should be forced to endure here...for anyone who has the good sense to skip the following, BLUF is that the financials for a Starlink-like constellation are anything but an obvious slam dunk.

Ok, so conservative estimates puts the cost of a Viasat-3 at $650M, they're built to pump over 1 TBPS reliably for 15 years, and of course they need to be launched. That ends up rounding to a cost of ~$50k/GBPS/year. The constellation is actually 3 satellites with near global coverage, but let's just play out a hypothetical where one of those sats just puts down 1TBPS over the continental US.

Starlink sats can each pump 20GBPS, are built to last less than 5 years, and it's reasonable enough for this comparison to say that to put 1TBPS down on the lower 48 the constellation needs ~1000 sats (~50 usefully operating sats over the US at any moment). For the sake of keeping this 0th order, that roughly means 3000 sats over 15 years. Taking your $250k/sat cost for Starlink (which is maybe a little high based on what I've heard), and without factoring in launch costs, that maths out to the ~same $50k/gbps/yr as the GEO. Now of course there's the whole rest of the world where the constellation can also provide service (whereas the GEO can't in this hypothetical). To factor that out--as folks who at all follow satellite services know--the US will for the foreseeable future represent at least 50% of the global revenue of something like Starlink. So for the sake of simplicity we'll halve the $50k rate to $25k/gbps/yr for Starlink.

But...now we need to factor in launch costs. For SX to hit the $50k number they're looking at the equivalent Falcon launch cost of $6-7M (and we generally believe the cost is closer to $10M). If this were a non-SX company someone is looking at ~60 launches (@50 sats/launch) which would rack up to the better part of $3B just in launch costs (round number WAG of $50M/per) which skyrockets that annualized per bit number to $250k/year.

Note that the above doesn't even begin to contemplate other program costs like NRE or the ground segment, both of which are significantly higher for the megaconstellation over the GEO. Many tens of percent of the total program cost.

Now, of course there's a number of upsides to the LEO constellation, both in performance and robustness over the GEO sat (technology advancements, how the capacity can actually be used/maximized, etc.), but again the point here is that its not simply a slam dunk to swing the pendulum way into a megaconstellation over more traditional solutions. You gotta dig deeper for the SX angle to make sense.

Telesat is another relevant case study here. They were looking at ~300 sats @ ~$10M a piece, with something like ~18-20 launches. Basically, they wanted a comparable-ish constellation to Starlink, but because they didn't have internal at-cost access to launches, they traded constellation cost for launch cost: they decided to make the individual sats bigger, more capable, and more robust [than Starlinks] in order to reduce the total number of launches.

That logic racks up to around ~$4B for the space segment, or ~$250M/year (over 15 years, which I think was the goal) for the constellation. I'm pretty sure they could put more than 1 TBPS down on the lower 48--maybe even twice that--but if we go with the above 1tbps capacity that's puts the bean counters back at the ~$250k/gig/year number. And clearly investors don't like that number...


But I'm wondering is where does the money go to get "lifetime, reliability, and performance" required for traditional satellites?

Excellent question.

It's one of those deals where there's no one thing that makes a difference but rather the sum of a bunch of complimentary elements. What it really comes down to though is providing acceptable service quality and acceptable service uptime to a customer. Traditionally in a space application this is achieved with operational confidence of each of a low number of satellites; that confidence only comes with money. Megaconstellations achieve quality/uptime through the strength in numbers approach. (Non-megaconstellations, unfortunately, end up leaning toward the traditional approach.)

Certainly not comprehensive, the money for traditionally spec’ed satellites goes to:

—Radiation resiliency: Any electrical component on orbit is going to be the recipient of a reasonably predicable amount of radiation, and those dosages will [statistically] result in reasonably predictable failures, ranging from simple, correctable errors (like a bit flip) to hard failure. Generally speaking low orbits see significantly less radiation than higher orbits, so a satellite in LEO is going to need a much less robust set of electronics than something in MEO/GEO, for instance. (there's a lot of nuance in the actual dosages depending on what kind of orbit, the actual altitudes, etc.) Regardless, a component that's more resilient is going to cost more money. Often Significantly more money.

—Operational Lifetime: Very related to radiation but worth separating out because its a big factor, radiation is a cumulative thing, and any particular part has a reasonably accurate [statistical] life based [mostly] on dosage. A starlink chip that’s designed to last 4-5 years or whatever only sees half the dose of an otherwise equivalent chip on another program that wants an 8-10 year mission, and will cost maybe 10-25% the cost of the 8-10 year chip.

—Redundancy: Bit Captain Obvious here, but for a number of different reasons you want to have a spare thing in case the primary thing stops working. This could be an intermittent issue, like a computer resetting due to a bit flip (and so you want a backup computer to take over), or this could be permanent, like a component hard-failing and having to be bypassed. This applies at both the part level (like parts on a circuit board) as well as the top level satellite (where you might have 2:1 computers, 3:2 star trackers, 4:3 wheels, etc.). On top of these extra parts/units you need additional satellite resources (switches, harnessing, automated recovery logic, cross-strapping logic, etc.) to make it all work, which all costs more money, more time to develop, and more time to validate/test…and then of course all that adds complexity so you need to layer on even more to make sure that complexity is sufficiently controlled within your risk profile. All that costs money…and time and mass (which both cost money).

Stable performance over mission life: Kind of related to the first two, you need your gizmos to do The Thing throughout the entire mission life. We’ve talked about radiation above; thermal is the other major player here. A Satellite goes through a lot of thermal cycles—that radio shack resistor, for instance, probably is going to be all over the place over temperature whereas a more expensive resistor will be acceptably stable. This phenomenon degrades over time, so it’s very related to mission life. Maybe that radio shack part works for a 6 month cubesat…but absolutely won’t for that 15 year GEO.

—Gizmo Pedigree/Traceability: This one adds a ton of money. You need to know That Part is the right part and that it’s going to work, and all that takes time and oversight to make sure it’s a valid part. Circuit board components are a great example here. Often a space rated part is actually a physically different part (materials, build processes, suppliers, etc.) than the radio shack equivalent in order to achieve the above points, so there’s obvious price increase there. But sometimes the space rated part is literally just a better controlled radio shack part (or at least, the automotive grade part)—things like lot traceability, lot screening, positive asset control, etc…all those cost money. The logic is that there’s variability in any mass produce part, and you don’t want to risk your umpteen million dollar satellite on getting unlucky with that one 1/10 cent resistor that didn’t get built right. Better to buy a 20 cent version where you’re confident it’s going to work. The fun irony in this is that the automotive part is getting built in massive lots where the natural statistical variation is pretty low across the lot. The space version of the same part is built in MUCH smaller quantities, so it the lot actually suffers worse statistical variation. So you need to do even more statistical lot screening to ensure your variability is acceptable, and of course that costs money. I’ve seen space parts (capacitors, diodes, etc.) were upward of 20% of the whole lot is set aside for screening.

whenever you lower the cost of something 100X you get an explosion of demand from industries which were not previously viable.

Logic closes on that. We all get that.

The issue is that nothing of any consequence in the space industry is coming down by 100X anytime soon. (This goes back to my earlier comment on discussions here often getting wires crossed on timelines, FTR.) Maybe in 3-4 decades launch might approach 100X reduction of a 2020's equivalent, but certainly not for the practical future.

SpaceX recently launched a program to build satellites for government purposes. I'm guessing that they intend to use their Starlink approach for those.. but that Space Force etc will want high reliability. Do you think they have a way to produce an up-market Starlink bus with Space Force Payloads for, say 6 times the price which would be $1.5M (and then charge the Space Force $5M for it)? Or do you think they are going to fall on their face?

Sorry for the overt diplomacy here...

Yes, it is reasonable to assume that SpaceForce! wants a satellite with higher reliability than what SX has done with Starlink. It is reasonable to assume SX could build that satellite, and it is also reasonable to assume they can charge SpaceForce! accordingly. There’s zero evidence SX is incapable of doing any part of building, launching, or operating such a constellation, and there's zero evidence to suggest SX would in any way fall short of whatever requirements SpaceForce! deems necessary.
 
Well, you can do all sorts of fancy spreadsheets, but it is much simpler to just see what the GEO competitors are charging and what level of service they are delivering.

I think you are trying to compare the next gen Geo sats with current Starlink technology and costs. We have no firm knowledge of what the service levels or customer pricing is for the next gen geo satellites.

Comparing what is possible to buy right now, Starlink blows the competition out of the water. Airlines are switching over to Starlink. All Cruise lines are also. Consumer level service is slightly more expensive for Starlink but the service levels are hugely better. People have been cancelling Geo sats service in droves and switching. And I think Starlink is now available in 60 countries and all polar regions now, so truly worldwide coverage.
 
... it is much simpler to just see what the GEO competitors are charging and what level of service they are delivering.

Why?

1. It doesn't at all address the question, which was basically "why are legacy satellites so expensive when SX's are so cheap?" (and the implied corollary of "Why doesn't everyone just do what SX does?")

2. Everybody already knows that Starlink offers better end user service what the legacy competitors have converged to with their old tech on orbit, so what's the point in talking about it? To wit, where's the value in running a victory lap because this year's hot new HP is way better than the Dell from 2018? Would you also like to make the case that the Yankees could totally murder the Savanna Bananas?
 
To be clear I'm not calling the SL sats crap, I'm saying they fall WAY short of the bar from the perspective of a traditionally spec’ed satellite. And also to be clear, that's not a slight--

We're absolutely on the same page there, and I didn't take it as a negative, I we both see it as a specific choice. This discussion started off with me repeating the assertion I had seen in a pitch deck about the mass cost trade off, which you have been debunking. Much to my benefit (I'm learning a lot.)

There's also an old space/vs new space thing going on here, and its obvious things were done a particular way in the past for good reasons, and I'm trying to figure out what reasons are no longer valid.

I think it's fairly analogous to the ICE vs EV transition-- lots of assumptions for ICE don't carry over. (but also, we don't know at his point for sure which ones will fail.)

I wonder if it would be a good idea to start a thread talking about new space startups (that aren't focused on launch), or is this thread more appropriate? (Every forum has its own culture so advice appreciated.)



Taking your $250k/sat cost for Starlink (which is maybe a little high based on what I've heard), and without factoring in launch costs, that maths out to the ~same $50k/gbps/yr as the GEO.

Excellent point. One area of margin for SpaceX is that while by your numbers they aren't saving dramatically on costs per gbps per year, their orbits give them a competitive advantage. To the consumer latency is maybe %50 of the perception of "bandwidth". EG: 1 terabit per second with a 10 second latency (extreme example) will seem slower than 10 megabits per second with a 1 millisecond latency.

And of course LEO gives starlink a huge advantage there. As well as benefits to Radiation resiliancy, Operational Lifetime, the inherent required Redundancy helps as well, etc. It was great to see your breakdown of all the costs, and I'm going to cut a lot of your text here but I found it hugely informative.

The key point, though, is that the megaconstellation economics are not a slam dunk and this isn't going to be the way forward for everyone.

But I think we may start seeing companies go from 1-2 sats in GEO to 10-20 sats in MEO for non-latency critical things (like earth scanning) and that lower launch costs may thus result in an explosion of MEO constellations (and by that I just mean 10-50 sats, probably more on the 10-15 area). MEO might become more viable.

I'm in your debt, you increased my understanding significantly.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Reactions: bxr140 and scaesare
One area of margin for SpaceX is that while by your numbers they aren't saving dramatically on costs per gbps per year, their orbits give them a competitive advantage. To the consumer latency is maybe %50 of the perception of "bandwidth". EG: 1 terabit per second with a 10 second latency (extreme example) will seem slower than 10 megabits per second with a 1 millisecond latency.

And of course LEO gives starlink a huge advantage there. As well as benefits to Radiation resiliancy, Operational Lifetime, the inherent required Redundancy helps as well, etc.

Yeah, definitely plenty of operational/performance upsides to LEO over the higher orbits; the math really just has to work out so the unfavorable impacts from a massive number of LEOs overcomes the higher orbit deficiencies.

One solution we may see for non-SX entities is a hybrid constellation, where there's a low altitude shell for low-latency demand (real time reaction to clicks, real time video, etc) and then higher altitude/GEO assets for the heavy capacity lifts (streaming, down-page loading, etc.). The obvious roadblock to that is necessarily complex traffic routing (not to mention privacy concerns...), but the upsides are fewer total sats and less total mass on orbit, which hopefully everyone can agree is A Good Thing. Time will tell if this plays out...I admittedly grow less optimistic on this one, as it is inevitable that terrestrial coverage expansion will constrict a lot of the future growth in space.

But I think we may start seeing companies go from 1-2 sats in GEO to 10-20 sats in MEO for non-latency critical things (like earth scanning) and that lower launch costs may thus result in an explosion of MEO constellations (and by that I just mean 10-50 sats, probably more on the 10-15 area). MEO might become more viable.

Could be. Especially low MEO (like what SES is doing with mPower) where it's tenable to put up a constellation with a decent number of sats. But...MEO is still a bit of a tough place to be from an environment perspective, its still a bit of a tough place to get to from a lift perspective, and then its also a tough place to be from a ground coverage perspective. To date pretty much anything in MEO is basically just a GEO (the mPowers are just evolved 702's, so no change there), and that's probably not going to change any time soon (or until LEO goes Kessler...). Higher MEO like most of the GNSS fleets obviously enables fewer quantity sats, but unless you're looking for true global coverage its kind of one of those things where you might as well just go to GEO or HIEO. But...HIEOs are a bit of a trick too and not super easy to close the business model. The first Sirius radio sats are one of the better case studies here--they had three sats in a HIEO with the logic that the UTs would see one of the sats at higher elevation angles than they would the GEO belt (so, less occlusion and less ranging loss) and thus the link would close more often and at lower power levels. Starting with Sirius 5 though (the first three had one ground spare that never flew...its in the back corner of Udvar-Hazy if anyone wants to check it out) they realized its a better deal to just put one high gain sat at GEO. So every Sirius or Sirius/XM sat that's flown since has been a big ass unfurlable antenna in GEO.

For earth sensing it's kind of a case-by-case on where to go. For most commercial earth observation ~low LEO is kind of the inevitable sweet spot. What you lose in unfavorable geometry (coverage area per sat) you gain in favorable geometry (scan fidelity), and from a business/product perspective that typically is what tips the scales. State funded programs have a little more flexibility on altitude (at the expense of cost/exquisite instruments), and they're all generally conservative/oldspace satellites, so you see a lot more in higher orbits. GOES comes to mind.

Not really on topic, it's worth noting that it's not like potential new space disruptors are floating in a blue ocean here. Spire has long aspired (or at least, for a while they aspired) to revolutionize weather with RO instruments on their global LEO constellation...but to date that really hasn't panned out, at least to any meaningful degree. GOES data is really still the go-to.

Another potential growth area is in the long-lauded-but-never-implemented 'persistent' platform. The concept generally is rooted in GEO, though one could imagine it being in any kind of orbit (and in fact, ISS is a decent example). The general thesis is that you have a fairly low tech but super high reliability platform that can last for a long time, onto which you can bolt (and un/rebolt) payloads that are more forward leaning in technology, ostensibly with higher frequency than you'd otherwise be putting new payloads into orbit. Makes sense theoretically--the platform simply provides services to the payload (power, thermal control, pointing, structure, etc.) and those services don't need to be cutting edge, they need to be steadfast and predictable. Unfortunately it's hard to close the dollars in reality, because again once you get out beyond the relative protection of LEO you pretty much have to build a comparatively conservative gizmo.

FWIW on MEO, for funsies a few years ago I came up with a pretty cool, near global coverage constellation (maybe someone has thought of it before, but I've never seen it). The geometry is 4 WAY retrograde sun-synch planes (like 140° inclination or something) with ~10 sats each at ~5000km altitude. The result was a constellation that had significant coverage overlap from sat to sat (for coverage robustness), and the high altitude combined with specific RAAN's enabled the planes all to precess completely in sunlight. The thought was to minimize battery and solar panel size/mass/cost/complexity and eliminate the step-function thermal gradients experienced on either side of eclipse.

At the risk of stating the obvious, those upsides don't overcome the significant disadvantage incurred by launching the wrong way. ;)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: scaesare
That's Vulcan Centaur time. Does ULA get a free pass to use VC for Starliner or will they hold a few Atlas V's back?

And I looked it up: No

Yeah ULA has built in the ability to move both vehicles through their existing production and final assembly facilities, and for some time they’ll be bouncing back and forth from mission to mission. Bit of an inefficient bummer as that certainly levied some design constraints on Vulcan, but that’s the price of playing with gub’ment monies.

It might give them a bit of relief on delays from a hard switchover (like what Ariane is doing) but probably not in reality.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Grendal
Vandenberg SLC-6 (former Delta IV launch site) to be leased to SpaceX for F9/FH

343130154_1571962603621282_1161757858347598255_n.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well that’s interesting given that SpaceX already has a launch pad at Vandenburg which is not heavily used.
SpaceX has had 7 launches from SLC-4E so far this year. Roughly one every two weeks.

SLC-6 has an expanded Shuttle sized flame trench, potentially better suited for Falcon Heavy and, maybe, other rockets.
 
As soon as NASA has a second domestic supplier for crewed flights (e.g. Blue Origin), I hope they can close the book on the NASA manned flight program. Pump that money into pure research and science, like experimental engines, probes to the planets and so on; stuff that companies won't go near, but that benefits the nation.