Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[one2many]

1. it might not be that often, but when it's needed, not being able to hit it easily would be difficult given the position of your steering wheel. also depends on where you are, seems this would be a much bigger issue in europe.

The place you really need turn signals is on the freeways. In some places you
are going anywhere from 80-110mph. There is a distraction using a stalk, sometimes
removing it from the wheel at times. This maybe a good place for buttons.

I think way too much has been said for roundabouts.
We go through 3 every day, on tight, one large and one medium.
Turn signals or not you really have to wait until the cars coming
commit to the turn before entering and more often its the cars
behind are always a question. It your hands are out of position,
you drive with one hand and signal with the other. (stalk)
For these corner cases, voice would be even better, just "right"
and "left". And for those who like one handed driving, roll down the
window and use arm signals.

 

[whitex]

The thing is human nature loves consistency. So anytime something deviates from the norm, human's first reaction is to be outraged. Then when the thing is actually implemented and you can see it in person and able to test it out, then they realized that its not so bad.

Well, I tested it out to the extent Tesla let me, and chose to leave the brand after 4 Model S'es. My wife was really set on a Model X after her two Model S'es, because she likes consistency. Driving a Model X convinced her to switch brands too. Perhaps what you're saying is that it is possible to get used to the yoke, but honestly, why would I want to buy something which is different, not better, so I have to get used to it. As as proposed earlier, true test of your theory would be a free retrofit to a stalked round wheel for anyone who buys a yoke and still doesn't love it after some time (a month, two months perhaps).

I am sure most people who don't like Teslas is because one of the reasons is that it doesn't have that front dashboard display because they are soo used to it and cars within the last 50 years have always had a dashboard display. Then once someone test drives it and you are behind the wheel and looking straight, you realize that as much as they think the screen is very far from their peripheral vision, the reality is that they are able to see it just fine and don't need to be rotating their head just to look at their speedometer.

My wife an I have rented a Model 3 a few times while traveling. One of those times she drove the Model 3 for a couple of days (I typically drive when we travel together, this was a longer trip where we drove separately). Other times she occasionally drives it. She still doesn't like the lack of instrument cluster in front of the steering wheel. On the other hand, our parents (on both sides) love their MY/M3's. I asked, they would still prefer an instrument cluster, but the other benefits offset it. Perhaps people willing to live with the yoke are just doing a net cost/benefit analysis, for example 0-60 in 2s acceleration for under $100K vs. having to live with the yoke - worth it?

 

[rpiotro]

I’ve never seen a motorcycle put on a turn signal at speed….

At speed? Like on a race track?

 

[CaptainCremeS]

This obsession with saving costs by reducing equipment is getting a little out of hand. I got a 21 MY, one of the last ones with radar (which was eventually deactivated via SW), that's right about when they started removing stuff... center console data USBs, radar, passenger lumbar, CCS compatibility (it was added back months later), reduced the speaker count, got rid of USS...

I'm of this opinion honestly. My 2019 Performance seems to be one of the last years before Tesla began deleting parts off of it, and frankly while I can see the legitimacy and thought process in doing so, they're going too far. Removal of the stalks isn't an issue of just "It's a potential safety concern" like the HVAC controls- we're talking centuries of automotive design philosophy across hundreds of brands that Tesla is now attempting to undo, at a time where they have growing competition in the EV Space. They WANT new owners, they WANT first-timers; and not having obvious gear selectors or stalks can scare people off. I know it took me a few days to get comfortable with my car.

It really feels like they're trapped in some kind of oruboros of "Innovation", like they HAVE to make things different than other OEMs because that's their brand. Meanwhile, the aftermarket that adds things like bluetooth enabled buttons, special accessories or even turning your phone into a HUD seem to just grow bigger each year.

 

[Midpack]

I don't see a lot of people using their turn signals in any circumstance, but those who use turn signals use them frequently (every turn or lane change, including when about to exit a roundabout). The gear selector is much less frequently used by drivers who do use turn signals.

You're mixing two entirely different things. There really isn't an issue for a standard turn, as the wheel is straight (or close to) so the turn signals are in the exact same place on the left spoke of the steering wheel, and you always signal before you begin the turn so the turn signal location is constant.

OTOH exiting a roundabout is a different situation since the wheel won't be straight up so the orientation of the turn signal will vary with turn radius - finding the turn signal will be noticeably more difficult. I am not sure why our Euro counterparts seem to be more insistent stalkless is an issue for roundabouts, lots of people in the USA don't bother with turn signals for roundabouts here IME - and it's not really a big problem. We all know those in the roundabout have right of way, and wait for a clear opening to enter, without relying on a turn signal - for all I know the driver has left the turn signal on, so I don't consider that a reliable indicator of the oncoming drivers intent. Until I see the other car physically begin to turn, I am not entering a roundabout... We should be able to rely on turn signals, but in the real world it might not be wise.

Whether I buy a pre-Juniper MYLR, or the refresh (without stalks), the decision won't hinge on stalks at all. More than willing to forego them for other features. YMMV

 

[father_of_6]

I am not sure why our Euro counterparts seem to be more insistent stalkless is an issue for roundabouts, lots of people in the USA don't bother with turn signals for roundabouts here IME - and it's not really a big problem. We all know those in the roundabout have right of way,

Pedestrians are likely one consideration. North Carolina may not have a lot of pedestrians where you would find roundabouts, but London might be more like NYC except with roundabouts instead of a grid.

Indeed, some people here have a lax viewpoint on the need to use turn signals at all... perhaps those drivers are less likely to actually use signals themselves. On the other hand, some of us are sticklers for the systems in place, want people to follow the rules, and don't want impediments to following those rules ourselves.

Turn signals only exist because history taught us that there are fewer accidents when people have and use them. Logic dictates that making them harder to use will reduce their usage and thus increase the potential for accidents.

Elon has so strongly touted the safety of their vehicles, as well as the safety of FSD. We know FSD isn't actually improving safety, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised that they're willing to also sacrifice safety for the stalkless cost reduction as well.

 

[whitex]

I don't see a lot of people using their turn signals in a roundabout anyway, so that seems like a made up argument,

By that logic, I don't see a lot of people using their turn signals at all, so anyone complaining their car turn signals don't work is a made up complaint, right?

 

[whitex]

We should be able to rely on turn signals, but in the real world it might not be wise.

It directional indicator on cars are never 100% reliable, they are an intent signal you take into account when driving. Just because something is not 100% reliable, doesn't mean it's useless. For example, I like being able to signal my intent to other drivers. Perhaps some, like you, will completely ignore it, but there will be some for whom it will be helpful. A couple of years ago I recall driving in a round about, I was in the outside lane and there was a large pickup truck on the inside lane. The exit I was taking was only for the outside lane, but the truck being so high up, me being in a low sedan next to him, he didn't notice. But he did signal his intent to exit, to which I responded by braking and honking the horn, which probably saved us an accident. He waved "sorry" after we both exited.

 

[flai54]

Well, I tested it out to the extent Tesla let me, and chose to leave the brand after 4 Model S'es. My wife was really set on a Model X after her two Model S'es, because she likes consistency. Driving a Model X convinced her to switch brands too. Perhaps what you're saying is that it is possible to get used to the yoke, but honestly, why would I want to buy something which is different, not better, so I have to get used to it. As as proposed earlier, true test of your theory would be a free retrofit to a stalked round wheel for anyone who buys a yoke and still doesn't love it after some time (a month, two months perhaps).

My wife an I have rented a Model 3 a few times while traveling. One of those times she drove the Model 3 for a couple of days (I typically drive when we travel together, this was a longer trip where we drove separately). Other times she occasionally drives it. She still doesn't like the lack of instrument cluster in front of the steering wheel. On the other hand, our parents (on both sides) love their MY/M3's. I asked, they would still prefer an instrument cluster, but the other benefits offset it. Perhaps people willing to live with the yoke are just doing a net cost/benefit analysis, for example 0-60 in 2s acceleration for under $100K vs. having to live with the yoke - worth it?

To your first paragraph, my point was that yes it could be something that people can eventually deal with or may consider it an improvement but first reaction is to assume it is 100% a downgrade. My intention wasn't to say that even test driving it or whatever that you are obligated to like it. Its ok to not like the new implementation for any feature and opt to buy something else or find an older model. Its your money at the end of the day and you have the freedom to take your business elsewhere if it is not meeting your needs.

The whole instrument cluster thing is something I think most people still agree with as probably one of the top reasons if not the top reason for not getting a Tesla besides the minimalist/"cheap" interior materials and the lack of USS sensors/radar. Don't get me wrong here, even I still prefer an instrument cluster on my Model Y which is why I bought one of those 3rd party steering wheel instrument cluster for a couple hundred dollars just to have as redundancy while looking straight. Now obviously I bought the Tesla still so to me it wasn't enough of a deal breaker because there are 3rd party solutions out there that can address my concerns and I was ok with that weighing the current hardware/software benefits of a Tesla.

However everyone is different and if you talk to enough people you will find out that people will not buy any product whether that is a car, house, tech gadget, etc just for the simplest reasons and there is nothing wrong with that. Personally I am not a fan of the yoke steering wheel either even though I haven't actually driven a Tesla using the yoke steering wheel. However I know for me, I care most about safety so even if I got to test drive a yoke steering wheel and found its not so bad, I would still opt for a regular steering wheel since I still worry about the incidents when I need to react quickly to maneuver the situation and knowing how I would react physically with a steering wheel, a full on steering wheel is still the best option for me. If they don't have a full steering wheel option, I won't buy it until there is a retrofit option or becomes the default option again. Luckily Tesla listened to their customer base and now has reverted back to the stoke wheel as the default with the yoke being a premium option.

 

[lschult2]

I just demo drove a Plaid, and had to do a 3 point turn. That was very awkward, slow, and dangerous. I didn't try parallel parking, but that would be just as bad.

 

[zoomer0056]

I just demo drove a Plaid, and had to do a 3 point turn. That was very awkward, slow, and dangerous. I didn't try parallel parking, but that would be just as bad.

A parking lot is a good place to try it out. Not a good idea to learn in traffic.

 

[whitex]

Luckily Tesla listened to their customer base and now has reverted back to the stoke wheel as the default with the yoke being a premium option.

AFAIK they just rounded the yoke. It still has no stalks, same touch controls as before. It is not a standard steering wheel.

To your first paragraph, my point was that yes it could be something that people can eventually deal with or may consider it an improvement but first reaction is to assume it is 100% a downgrade. My intention wasn't to say that even test driving it or whatever that you are obligated to like it. Its ok to not like the new implementation for any feature and opt to buy something else or find an older model. Its your money at the end of the day and you have the freedom to take your business elsewhere if it is not meeting your needs.

I'm thinking the yoke detracted some customers, but I seriously doubt it attracted any which would have otherwise not bought with a round steering wheel, therefore a net loss in sales. Perhaps the cost savings were worth it, maybe the media hype counts too?

 

[flai54]

AFAIK they just rounded the yoke. It still has no stalks, same touch controls as before. It is not a standard steering wheel.

I'm thinking the yoke detracted some customers, but I seriously doubt it attracted any which would have otherwise not bought with a round steering wheel, therefore a net loss in sales. Perhaps the cost savings were worth it, maybe the media hype counts too?

Yes the stoke wheel is just a rounded yoke. At least there are fixing one out of the 2 problems from before. No doubt Tesla did muck a lot with the standard steering wheel/gear selector stalks paradigm not to mention the button horn which who knows what affect that has had on MS/MX sales. Perhaps thats why the MS/MX have been getting steep discounts lately. I don't think there was media hype for the yoke steering wheel as necessarily a positive. It definitely was a unique feature that drew attention but clearly people missed the standard rounded wheel and made a stink about it which is why it was brought back as the default. Perhaps maybe if enough people make a stink about the on-screen forward/reverse gear selector they may bring it back. Who knows. But with the steep discounts of the MS/MX where they both are now eligible for the $7500 tax credit there will be people who buy the MS/MX again.

I will say I hate the way the current stalk TACC/autopilot activation method is on the car. I do wish they would adopt activating TACC/autopilot on the steering wheel for stalk cars like they do with the no-stalk MS/MX cars with the press of the right scroll wheel. Currently on stalk cars, the press of the right scroll wheel button activates the voice activation which I can care less about. I would much prefer if Tesla allowed users to select the voice activation as a long press (2-3 seconds) on the right scroll wheel instead of just a short press and repurpose the short press to be TACC/Autopilot activation. Being able to control adaptive CC on the steering wheel is much better than having to press the gear stalk down twice which is kinda awkward and ridiculous to be playing with the gear selector stalk while driving on the road. Not to mention that by moving the adaptive CC functions to the steering wheel it actually aligns with how traditional cars have it nowadays.

 

[father_of_6]

I will say I hate the way the current stalk TACC/autopilot activation method is on the car. I do wish they would adopt activating TACC/autopilot on the steering wheel for stalk cars like they do with the no-stalk MS/MX cars with the press of the right scroll wheel. Currently on stalk cars, the press of the right scroll wheel button activates the voice activation which I can care less about. I would much prefer if Tesla allowed users to select the voice activation as a long press (2-3 seconds) on the right scroll wheel instead of just a short press and repurpose the short press to be TACC/Autopilot activation. Being able to control adaptive CC on the steering wheel is much better than having to press the gear stalk down twice which is kinda awkward and ridiculous to be playing with the gear selector stalk while driving on the road. Not to mention that by moving the adaptive CC functions to the steering wheel it actually aligns with how traditional cars have it nowadays.

Strongly disagree. I use voice commands often, and TACC/Autopilot never. Leave me controls alone, ye scurvy pirate.

 

[flai54]

Strongly disagree. I use voice commands often, and TACC/Autopilot never. Leave me controls alone, ye scurvy pirate.

Didn't say it should go away. Also I believe it should be a choice like an option in the menu. Default would be the current way of operations but give the option in a menu as a choice to change voice commands to a long press and Autopilot to a button press.

 

[whitex]

I will say I hate the way the current stalk TACC/autopilot activation method is on the car. I do wish they would adopt activating TACC/autopilot on the steering wheel for stalk cars like they do with the no-stalk MS/MX cars with the press of the right scroll wheel. Currently on stalk cars, the press of the right scroll wheel button activates the voice activation which I can care less about. I would much prefer if Tesla allowed users to select the voice activation as a long press (2-3 seconds) on the right scroll wheel instead of just a short press and repurpose the short press to be TACC/Autopilot activation. Being able to control adaptive CC on the steering wheel is much better than having to press the gear stalk down twice which is kinda awkward and ridiculous to be playing with the gear selector stalk while driving on the road. Not to mention that by moving the adaptive CC functions to the steering wheel it actually aligns with how traditional cars have it nowadays.

The original stalked round steering wheel for S/X had a separate stalk for autopilot - the 3/Y solution to oversubscribe the gear stalks is already a result of cost reductions at the cost of user experience.

 

[whitex]

I don't think there was media hype for the yoke steering wheel as necessarily a positive.

Any media coverage, positive or negative, is free attention. Why do you think Elon does crazy *sugar* like pretend to want to fight Zuck in a cage?

 

[Tiger]

Nice rant:

 

[freeAgent]

Nice rant:

Bjorn said it best:

"Shiiiit man, get the stalks back! I don't know what Tesla is trying to do, but they want to cut cost, fine, but there is some stuff you don't wanna mess with."

The stalk-less design is less functional, and it involves a critical safety component. I will not buy a new Tesla if it doesn't have stalks for the turn signal. It's as simple as that.

 

[father_of_6]

It'd be interesting to know how much money removing the stalks really saves. Anyone have an educated guess? How much could it really save? $50?