Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[Tiger]

It'd be interesting to know how much money removing the stalks really saves. Anyone have an educated guess? How much could it really save? $50?

It's a statement, not just about the money, even if it is a bad statement.

 

[zoomer0056]

It'd be interesting to know how much money removing the stalks really saves. Anyone have an educated guess? How much could it really save? $50?

I don't know, but it has to involve a lot. How many pieces in the stalk? Hos is it attatch to steering colum. Pieces are sourced from multiple places, wiring in the stalk, solder, connectors in stalk and steering column, wire in wire harness to car, software. Then people paid for design, parts management, logistics, gas, trucks, assembly ..... I think it's more complicated than some would believe.

 

[freeAgent]

I don't know, but it has to involve a lot. How many pieces in the stalk? Hos is it attatch to steering colum. Pieces are sourced from multiple places, wiring in the stalk, solder, connectors in stalk and steering column, wire in wire harness to car, software. Then people paid for design, parts management, logistics, gas, trucks, assembly ..... I think it's more complicated than some would believe.

Putting turn signals in the wheel isn't free, either, particularly if you're going to include things like the cost to design it. It's not like there's no software, design, or engineering work involved with buttons on the steering wheel. IMO, the cost saved per vehicle is probably only a few bucks.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Putting turn signals in the wheel isn't free, either, particularly if you're going to include things like the cost to design it. It's not like there's no software or design work involved with buttons on the steering wheel. IMO, the cost saved per vehicle is probably only a few bucks.

A few bucks is a lot of money if going by Munro, where the automakers stress over pennies.

I don't think the cost savings however was the primary driver. It was the yoke. Just that Tesla didn't have the steer by wire tech ready for it to make it work as envisioned.

 

[father_of_6]

It's a statement, not just about the money, even if it is a bad statement.

I don't think the cost savings however was the primary driver. It was the yoke. Just that Tesla didn't have the steer by wire tech ready for it to make it work as envisioned.

I thought the consensus was that this was a cost savings. If this was done just to be different, that's even more upsetting... especially since most forum users with an opinion seem to either think that stalkless is worse or at best equal - not a lot of people arguing that stalkless is *better* from a functional standpoint.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I thought the consensus was that this was a cost savings. If this was done just to be different, that's even more upsetting... especially since most forum users with an opinion seem to either think that stalkless is worse or at best equal - not a lot of people arguing that stalkless is *better* from a functional standpoint.

I would say it was launched for the yoke (given it launched with Model S with the yoke) and kept around for the cost savings. But the idea might never have been implemented if it were not for the yoke.

 

[zoomer0056]

I thought the consensus was that this was a cost savings.

Without the ones in charge saying what the true driver is, it's only consensus by speculation.

 

[freeAgent]

A few bucks is a lot of money if going by Munro, where the automakers stress over pennies.

I don't think the cost savings however was the primary driver. It was the yoke. Just that Tesla didn't have the steer by wire tech ready for it to make it work as envisioned.

They could save even more money by removing the rear seats. Why don't they do that, too?

 

[Knightshade]

It'd be interesting to know how much money removing the stalks really saves. Anyone have an educated guess? How much could it really save? $50?

Tesla targets 20 million cars a year produced by end of decade, at $50 a car that's a savings of 1 billion dollars a year. Even at the "mere" almost 2 million cars this year you're talking 100 million bucks (if it came to the Y as well, which it certainly will on refresh)

 

[father_of_6]

Tesla targets 20 million cars a year produced by end of decade, at $50 a car that's a savings of 1 billion dollars a year. Even at the "mere" almost 2 million cars this year you're talking 100 million bucks (if it came to the Y as well, which it certainly will on refresh)

I understand that at that scale, a nickel cost reduction is a million dollars... however they're still selling the car for $40-50k.

They could save more money by removing the front bumper or the heated seats.

I think Elon doesn't have a good sounding board, or isn't willing to listen to others. Removing the stalks is a bad decision, and is going to cost them more in lost demand than they'll gain in cost savings.

 

[stopcrazypp]

They could save even more money by removing the rear seats. Why don't they do that, too?

Because most people care a lot more about the number of seats than about stalks missing (which aren't even in general spec sheets of cars).

I understand that at that scale, a nickel cost reduction is a million dollars... however they're still selling the car for $40-50k.

They could save more money by removing the front bumper or the heated seats.

That's being disingenuous. The front bumper is a necessity for the car. The heated seats people put explicit value on ($200 for rear ones for example for my SR), plus it improves efficiency. The stalks are not a necessity as the buttons substitute for it. It remains to be seen if people would put explicit value to get stalks back.

 

[zoomer0056]

Because most people care a lot more about the number of seats than about stalks missing (which aren't even in general spec sheets of cars).


That's being disingenuous. The front bumper is a necessity for the car. The heated seats people put explicit value on ($200 for rear ones for example for my SR), plus it improves efficiency. The stalks are not a necessity as the buttons substitute for it. It remains to be seen if people would put explicit value to get stalks back.

Too serious a reply. Gotta have a sense of humor to understand some comments.

 

[BigNick]

They could save even more money by removing the rear seats. Why don't they do that, too?

There are important electronic bits under the rear seat.

Plus, four doors and two seats is a dumb as hell configuration.

 

[father_of_6]

That's being disingenuous. The front bumper is a necessity for the car. The heated seats people put explicit value on ($200 for rear ones for example for my SR), plus it improves efficiency. The stalks are not a necessity as the buttons substitute for it. It remains to be seen if people would put explicit value to get stalks back.

Then perhaps instead of removing the stalks, they should make them an optional $500 addon at order time. Then they can see how many people value them.

I wasn't being disingenuous. The numbers work both ways. If they sell 20 million cars and just bump the price up by $50, they still get their billion dollars... and a $50 price increase isn't going to stop someone from buying the car... but removing the stalks to save $50 is going to stop a *LOT* of people from buying the car.

 

[ks1972]

Then perhaps instead of removing the stalks, they should make them an optional $500 addon at order time. Then they can see how many people value them.

I wasn't being disingenuous. The numbers work both ways. If they sell 20 million cars and just bump the price up by $50, they still get their billion dollars... and a $50 price increase isn't going to stop someone from buying the car... but removing the stalks to save $50 is going to stop a *LOT* of people from buying the car.

Agree, I looked at inventory model S in Atlanta area, there are 15 available and all have yoke steering.
Rather than spending time and resources on these stupid design changes, Tesla should spend resources on fixing the freaking Tesla vision stuff, people have paid thousands for FSD and things like auto park and summon haven’t worked for more than an year.

 

[dusty22]

Then perhaps instead of removing the stalks, they should make them an optional $500 addon at order time. Then they can see how many people value them.

I wasn't being disingenuous. The numbers work both ways. If they sell 20 million cars and just bump the price up by $50, they still get their billion dollars

I could never understand that reasoning, Just add the $50 or whatever dollar cost to the price of the car.

 

[Knightshade]

I could never understand that reasoning, Just add the $50 or whatever dollar cost to the price of the car.

Tesla is trying to make EVs cheaper- the suggestions to just add the cost to the car is the opposite of that.

 

[father_of_6]

Tesla is trying to make EVs cheaper- the suggestions to just add the cost to the car is the opposite of that.

Understood, but it shouldn't be at the expense of basic steering and controls. They could get rid of the automatic trunk or the rims since many people keep aero caps on anyways.

Get rid of the cameras... they don't even provide that much value (keep the rear, obviously). Get rid of the seat control levers and use the screen instead. Rear heated seats... goodbye. How about losing the glass roof?

No stalks, no buy.

 

[ks1972]

Tesla is trying to make EVs cheaper- the suggestions to just add the cost to the car is the opposite of that.

Not at expense of losing basic features that users rely on, like parking sensors.

 

[Knightshade]

Understood, but it shouldn't be at the expense of basic steering and controls.

It's not. The S/X hasn't had stalks a couple years ago and somehow nobody's died from the turn signal being on the wheel instead.

Get rid of the cameras... they don't even provide that much value

Never used autopilot I guess? It's literally the best part of owning the car.

No stalks, no buy.

The Model 3 is the second best selling sedan, not just EV but of any kind, in the country. It's likely it'll be #1 next year with the refresh and the tax credit moving to point of sale. I think they'll be ok without your buy.

Not at expense of losing basic features that users rely on

But again- that's not what's happening. It's not "losing" a basic feature, the controls are just moved to the wheel instead of on stalks.