Still considering advanced autopilot?

[Slymonkey]

IMO, this whole debate is analogous to saying that one shouldn't buy a engine with more horsepower in a ICE because it could lead to fatal accidents. Is it true that, in the hands of a teenager or a reckless driver, a fast car could be dangerous? Absolutely. But in the hands of many if not most drivers, a faster car could actually be safer (merging, passing, etc.). To each his own. I've had my MS for a couple weeks, and autopilot is already in my mind one of the single greatest automotive features I've personally experienced in three decades of driving.

 

[flyinghook]

I never implied it caused an accident, just that there should have been 2 parts of the system to react, and neither did. I know people don't like when someone comes onto a forum and stirs thoughts about (especially) a car, but that's all I was trying to do. I was a bit (practically sleeping) tired when I wrote it, and I thought the other forum was the one I had already joined and posted on, realized it wasn't, then posted on here because I like to stick to one forum overall. Oops. Don't sleep and post. Nobody knows how much anything is going to cost yet, and that alone might be enough to keep me from butting advanced auto pilot, but I'm the kind of person who buys a manual transmission for the simplicity, durability, and lower maintenance. Plus, for the same price I can get the premium sound package. So, I'm saying, if something is leads than perfect, in this case automatic braking, where weather wasn't even a factor (related, what about rain, dust, and heavy snow?), it didn't work. Of coarse my assumption was based on tesla not fixing the problem, which I was fairly certain they would (they're not ford or Chrysler), but if it didn't work, I would rather not pay for the radar and camera.

 

[JeffK]

without autonomous driving these cars should have stopped themselves to avoid the accident

With what? Magic? The drivers in every situation were not paying attention either due to fatigue or distraction. So tell me how would these cars have stopped themselves??

 

[flyinghook]

With the array of sensors on the front of the car attached to the computer with the program on it designed to stop the car if there's someone in front of you that isn't going the speed you are collectively called autopilot?

 

[mblakele]

With the array of sensors on the front of the car attached to the computer with the program on it designed to stop the car if there's someone in front of you that isn't going the speed you are collectively called autopilot?

That sounds like AEB (automatic emergency braking) — except that AEB isn't designed to stop the car. It's designed to reduce the severity of an impact in certain situations. Then there's TACC, which is designed to match the speed of the vehicle in front of you. TACC can bring the car to a full stop, but only in certain situations, and TACC is a convenience feature not an anti-collision system.

Are either of these part of autopilot? Depends on who you ask. As I see things, AEB is technically an "autopilot safety feature" while TACC is a convenience feature. But in casual discussion "autopilot" usually means "autosteer", and that's different. I don't think Tesla's own nomenclature is 100% consistent either, but here's how I understand it:

• autopilot hardware
  • also known as "Driver Assistance features"
  • included in all new cars since late 2014
  • necessary for all autopilot features
• autopilot safety features (included in all cars with AP hardware)
  • automatic emergency braking (AEB)
  • forward collision warning
  • lane departure warning
  • side collision warning
• autopilot convenience features (extra option, not included)
  • auto lane change
  • autopark
  • autosteer <- this is what most people mean by "autopilot"
  • summon
  • traffic aware cruise control (TACC)

Tesla doesn't claim infallibility for any of these features. On the contrary, the owners manual goes on and on about limitations and restrictions for each of these features. The gist is always that it's up to the driver to drive safely.

My copy covers AEB on p86:

Automatic Emergency Braking

The forward looking camera and the radar sensor are designed to determine the distance from any object (vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian) traveling in front of Model S. When a frontal collision is considered unavoidable, Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to automatically apply the brakes to reduce the severity of the impact. ​

Emphasis provided by me. Then the manual lists limitations and restrictions on AEB.

When Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced the driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h), the brakes are released. For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving at 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when the speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h).

Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between 5 mph (8 km/h) and 85 mph (140 km/h).

Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, in situations where you are taking action to avoid a potential collision. For example:

• You turn the steering wheel sharply.
• You press the accelerator pedal.
• You press and release the brake pedal.
• A vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian, is no longer detected ahead.

Warning: It is strongly recommended that you do not disable Automatic Emergency Braking. If you disable it, Model S does not automatically apply the brakes in situations where a collision is considered likely.

Warning: Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to reduce the severity of an impact. It is not designed to avoid a collision.

Warning: Several factors can a ect the performance of Automatic Emergency Braking, causing either no braking or inappropriate or untimely braking. It is the driver’s responsibility to drive safely and remain in control of the vehicle at all times. Never depend on Automatic Emergency Braking to avoid or reduce the impact of a collision.

Warning: Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to reduce the impact of frontal collisions only and does not function when Model S is in reverse.

Warning: Automatic Emergency Braking is not a substitute for maintaining a safe traveling distance between you and the vehicle in front of you.

Warning: The brake pedal moves downward abruptly during automatic braking events. Always ensure that the brake pedal can move freely. Do not place material on top of the Tesla-supplied driver’s floor mat (including an additional mat) and always ensure that the driver’s floor mat is properly secured. Failure to do so can impede the ability of the brake pedal to move freely. ​

 

[flyinghook]

The news reports no effort was made to apply the brakes, and given that lives were lost, I think the two things plus that excerpt from your manual may reveal what happened. If they were going even 84mph, the car ahould have slowed to at least 59mph, which given the high safety rating, I would think wouldn't be a fatal crash. If the car was going 86, though, the car wouldn't even attempt to slow itself. Of coarse, for the car to slow 25mph vs stopping the car, the software would have to determine whether there was no/ negligible speed or enough that 25mph would suffice. Ideally, it would determine the speed or lack of and slow the car to that speed. Given the technology in the teslas, I would hope it's just a matter of time until this real time processing/ acting is able to be coded into autopilot. Anyway, without the stored data from the cars, we don't know, but if they were going that fast, essentially is their fault

 

[WannabeOwner]

The news reports no effort was made to apply the brakes

So:

Driver not paying attention
or
Driver incapacitated

That's all there is to know.

When I engage Autopilot I get a warning message on the screen briefly saying "keep your hands on the wheel", so that's what I do. Anyone who is watching a movie, texting their mates, turning round to sort the kids out in the back, and so on ... and on ... and on ... is not driving with due care.

If you have your hands on the wheel, paying attention, whether you are using autopliot or not, you just don't drive into stationary objects, its that simple. If AEB kicks in to assist me in stopping, that's great, and may well mean that whatever action I take happens faster and better, that's great. But until the car is Autonymous I am still the one driving it.

If the car beeps when I start to change lanes or, better still, swerves safely, because there is something in my blindspot that I didn't see, or something moves towards me dangerously, that's great. But, either way, I have my wing mirrors offset, as recommended by motoring organisations, so that I have to move my head slightly to use them such that I can see the blindspot.

Now, if I read that a driver had his foot hard on the brake and AP drove into a stationary object ... or off the edge of the road into a tree ... etc., THEN I would be concerned.

Any part of that that you don't understand? please just ask for clarification.