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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

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They directly compared it only with McLAren F1, and it was totally legitimate and accurate comparison, as I pointed out to you personally about three months ago.

This may be true, though in the videos and documentation TM submitted there is no mention of this.

also, note the 0-60 times for p85d were adjacent to the 0-60 times for other Model S, on the order page, and for a long time there was no explicit distinction between the measurement methodology, rather it was implicit to alleged defacto standards for a different region. That could be represented as misleading to a consumer.

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This is not an accurate statement. As was mentioned about three months ago, Ford Mustang is also being advertised in Europe using rollout.

I believe I understand your intent here. A "performance" US-manufactured car using rollout is a precedent.

Isn't other manufacturer using inappropriate information irrelevant outside of legal systems that are based on precedent (eg US)?
Never mind the previous expectation of comparisons between Tesla vehicles with other Tesla vehicles being the issue claimed...? ;-)
 
They directly compared it only with McLAren F1, and it was totally legitimate and accurate comparison, as I pointed out to you personally about three months ago.

By comparison by Tesla I mean data for the 85D and the P85D, set up as directly comparable when they are not, which is misleading and against (at least) danish marketing law.

Re. F1 - 3.2s was without roll out (English company) which has been confirmed by McLaren them selfs - by you can go back and find that again.


This is not an accurate statement. As was mentioned about three months ago, Ford Mustang is also being advertised in Europe using rollout.

An american car that they sell about 3 fo a year in Europe - 1-foot rollout is not used in Europe

No. That has never been part of the complaint. That would just be outright stupid.

The comparison we have used in the case against Tesla is their own comparison, on their own website at the time they started to sell the D's. The comparison between 85D and P85D especially. The 85D numbers are without rollout (as with all the previous lineup of 85, P85, P85+). They only mentioned the rollout on the p85d when this case started rolling from Denmark.

Exactly
 
Isn't other manufacturer using inappropriate information irrelevant outside of legal systems that are based on precedent (eg US)?

I don't see it as being a precedent issue but instead it may be brought up on the issue of what is the "standard in the industry". I doubt it would be an absolute defence, since the rebuttal of the owners would be that just because other companies mislead doesn't allow Tesla to do the same, but it may be a factor the Court can consider, and assign whatever weight it deems appropriate, if any.
 
No. That has never been part of the complaint. That would just be outright stupid.

The comparison we have used in the case against Tesla is their own comparison, on their own website at the time they started to sell the D's. The comparison between 85D and P85D especially. The 85D numbers are without rollout (as with all the previous lineup of 85, P85, P85+). They only mentioned the rollout on the p85d when this case started rolling from Denmark.

mindsweeper I appreciate your posting here as there is a lot of interest in the issue and information from the source might cut out the noise and misinterpretations.

I am curious about the step 2 you mention in other thread, quote below. I am wondering if a ruling in step 2 is binding, how is it funded and what are the expectations. My understanding from reading Norweigan media report on Council letter contents is that now the burden of proof is on the claimants to prove their points in a higher level institution with some sort of data.

The usual scenario here in Aus. when consumers are not happy with a product is to get a refund, no hassles. I have not heard of a cash handout being given. Perhaps Norway could be different. My expectation is, given Tesla's history, that Tesla is likely to push for buyback of your car rather than cash handout, in the case they lose in step 2. Is that a possibility?

The cover letter from Forbrukerrådet is not a ruling, decision or anything like that. It is a basic explanation to all the 193 complaintifs that as Tesla is not willing to meet at the table, the way forward is a phase 2 where a ruling will be made in either direction. It is also a recommendation to gather more evidence to have a stronger case as Tesla obviously can provide more technical details and background than what we as a group have done so far.

The reason I am not putting this cover letter out in the public is that it is styled personally to one of the 193 - with some personal information to it.

The last two paragraphs in the cover letter states:

"Vi kan ikke se at Tesla sitt tilsvar viser særlig meglingsvilje, og finner det derfor lite hensiktsmessig å fortsette meglingen ved vårt kontor.
Vi imøteser en snarlig tilbakemelding på kommentarer fra tilsvaret og om du ønsker å oversende saken til Forbrukertvistutvalget, senest innen 15.12.2015."
 
By comparison by Tesla I mean data for the 85D and the P85D, set up as directly comparable when they are not, which is misleading and against (at least) danish marketing law.

What I pointed out is that your statement about comparison by Tesla was not accurate. The only comparison Tesla did was to that of The McLaren F1. Neither you in your post nor I in my response were talking about unhappy owner's comparison. You stated that Tesla was comparingit to models not using 1-foot rollout, and I showed that it was inaccurate statement.

Re. F1 - 3.2s was without roll out (English company) which has been confirmed by McLaren them selfs - by you can go back and find that again.

As I pointed out there are three documented tests of McLaren F1 performnce:
  • British Autocar tested F1 at 3.2s, presumably without rollout (equivalent to 2.9s with a rolout)
  • . In Aug 1994 Issue Car and Driver reported test time of 3.2s with rollout
  • In November 2012 article Road and Track reported that according to their 1997 test McLaren F1 achieved 3.4s with rollout.
So in three documented tests 0-60mph acceleration time was 2.9, 3.2s, 3.4s (all with rollout or adjusted to be equivalent to the test with rollout. As seen from the above Tesla claim that P85D, with 3.2s 0-60mph time, based on available data is completely legitimate.


An american car that they sell about 3 fo a year in Europe - 1-foot rollout is not used in Europe

Ford Mustang sells thousands of Mustangs in Europe, and they do advertise their 0-62mph acceleration time with roll out without mentioning it.
 
I am curious about the step 2 you mention in other thread, quote below. I am wondering if a ruling in step 2 is binding, how is it funded and what are the expectations. My understanding from reading Norweigan media report on Council letter contents is that now the burden of proof is on the claimants to prove their points in a higher level institution with some sort of data.

A ruling in "Forbrukertvistutvalget" is legally binding, but this is low court so unless there is talk about petty cash or a very weak loser this will be appealed to the "Tingretten", which is the first of three courts in Norway where the Supreme Court will be the third. The funding of "step 2" is done by the consumer rights board, over the state budget.

Bear in mind that the media reports are made to sell newspapers, but they are right that the burden of proof is now on our shoulders.

What have happened so far is that the "Forbrukerrådet" (FR) has received 193 individual complaints following their complaints being denined when directed to Tesla. All of these are of course not identical, and there are probably a certain degree of complaints that have been submitted "just to be in on it". What the various complaints have said is impossible to know, and FR told Tesla that due to the amount of complaints they could choose one (of the 193) to proceed with instead of treating all 193 as individual complaints. Apparently they chose one that complained about HP, 0-100, missing updates, etc. Wisely enough, that creates an opportunity to use the chewbakka defence.

Most of us that complained early focused solely on the missing 700 HP. That will now be the focus for the "step 2" - we will be very crisp on the fact that Tesla sold us a 700 HP car, and gave us a car that will never be able to produce that amount of power. Ever.

(700 HP is what they told the Norwegian DMV - which again made all the insurance companies base their premiums on that number. Now Tesla have reverted and is marketing the car as a 463 HP vechicle. This has also been communicated to the DMV, and people are getting money back from their insurance companies... as one of the things we can use as proof that Tesla oversold the P85D.)

The usual scenario here in Aus. when consumers are not happy with a product is to get a refund, no hassles. I have not heard of a cash handout being given. Perhaps Norway could be different. My expectation is, given Tesla's history, that Tesla is likely to push for buyback of your car rather than cash handout, in the case they lose in step 2. Is that a possibility?

It is a possibility, but that would be totally up to the court to decide. Even if Tesla offer a buy back, this would probably be deemed unreasonable as long as the FX have made the car 30% more expensive compared to orders made before Christmas last year. What has been suggested is that Tesla offer a Ludicrous upgrade as compensation as that at least would bring the car close to the promised 0-100. I know the media talks about claims for payback of the difference between the P85D and 85D, but that will never happen and is not expected. But how many of us would have chunked out the extra $25k for 47 HP and some red calipers if we knew that was what we were getting?
 
This may be true, though in the videos and documentation TM submitted there is no mention of this.

also, note the 0-60 times for p85d were adjacent to the 0-60 times for other Model S, on the order page, and for a long time there was no explicit distinction between the measurement methodology, rather it was implicit to alleged defacto standards for a different region. That could be represented as misleading to a consumer.

I am not sure why you are bringing up the videos and the fact that Tesla webpage had acceleration times without the roll-out for lower end models and with rollout for the P85D.

In my post I simply pointed out that what Rns-e posted was inaccurate: Tesla did not directly compared P85D with anything except McLaren F1. Here is what he posted:

Being an North American Company does not mean that they do not have to follow the rules and laws in the country they are selling their products. Leaving out the information about using 1-foot roll out, will be considered misleading marketing in Denmark and I would think Norway as well. Especially when they directly compare it to models not using 1-foot rollout.



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I believe I understand your intent here. A "performance" US-manufactured car using rollout is a precedent.

Isn't other manufacturer using inappropriate information irrelevant outside of legal systems that are based on precedent (eg US)?
Never mind the previous expectation of comparisons between Tesla vehicles with other Tesla vehicles being the issue claimed...? ;-)

Not really. Once again what Rns-e posted was inaccurate, and I just was correcting it. He stated that 1-foot rollout is not used in Europe and I simply pointed out that it is not true.

Regarding your implication that specification of acceleration time is part of the "legal system" I am pretty sure that it is not.

The bottom line that Tesla upgrade in performance between the updated 85D and updated P85D is about 0.9s (accounting for the roll out difference). This this step-up in performance, unhappy owners paid $20,000. In US this is in line or less than what unhappy owners would pay for similar upgrade in performance in a comparable ICE car. In both Norway and Denmark it is *several* times less than an owner would need to pay for the similar performance upgrade. The claim that owners "did not get what they paid for" just does not hold.
 
I am not sure why you are bringing up the videos and the fact that Tesla webpage had acceleration times without the roll-out for lower end models and with rollout for the P85D.

In my post I simply pointed out that what Rns-e posted was inaccurate: Tesla did not directly compared P85D with anything except McLaren F1.

Dude, we are not talking about P85D vs F1 or anyting else, we are talking about P85D vs other Tesla models... the comparison was made on their own website:

tesla700.jpg
 
In my post I simply pointed out that what Rns-e posted was inaccurate: Tesla did not directly compared P85D with anything except McLaren F1.
Just for clarification...

You don't consider the below "directly comparing" P85D to the 85D and 70D?

Model S | Tesla Motors
ModelS_Specs.png


Note: I'm aware that this (current) rendering of the page observes the rollout distinction between flavors. My question here is about the term "directly comparing".
 
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(700 HP is what they told the Norwegian DMV - which again made all the insurance companies base their premiums on that number. Now Tesla have reverted and is marketing the car as a 463 HP vechicle. This has also been communicated to the DMV, and people are getting money back from their insurance companies... as one of the things we can use as proof that Tesla oversold the P85D.)

I do not believe above is accurate description of Tesla specifications. Tesla originally marketed P85D as having 700 motor hp, according the European regulation ECE R85 which directs manufacturers to use maximum rating of the motors without considering the limitation of the battery for rating of the cars. This rating per ECE R85 is required to be used on Certificate of Confromity that required for cars registered in European countries. Following complaints from unhappy P85D owners, Tesla modified their marketing. The cars are still marketed using max power ratings of its motors, with an asterisk pointing out the limitation of the battery.

I am not sure if you are aware of this, but the combined power rating of the motors is the characteristic which is mostly responsble for the 0.9s (after accounting for the roll out difference) improvement in 0-60 acceleration over the 85D. As was shown before, the car with combined 700 hp rating of the motors and battery limit of 463hp will accelerate like P85D, but the car with combined 463 hp rating of the motors and 463hp limit of the battery (463 hp car) will not. It will be more than 0.9s slower in 0-60mph.

The just of it is that it is inaccurate to say that you bought a 463hp car, because performance of it would not even come close to the performance of the car that you own. You bought a car with combined 700hp rating of the motors, that is limited by the battery to 463hp. The two cars have different hardware and different performance.

If interested in technicalities proving the above, you can read about it here.

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Just for clarification...

You don't consider the below "directly comparing" P85D to the 85D and 70D?

Model S | Tesla Motors
View attachment 103367

Note: I'm aware that this (current) rendering of the page observes the rollout distinction between flavors. My question here is about the term "directly comparing".

Just for clarification...

Here is the exchange you should look at (BTW I though that you decided and publicly stated that you are done spending your time on my posts, all the while admonishing people for rudeness, condescension and various other sins of posting) :

Being an North American Company does not mean that they do not have to follow the rules and laws in the country they are selling their products. Leaving out the information about using 1-foot roll out, will be considered misleading marketing in Denmark and I would think Norway as well. Especially when they directly compare it to models not using 1-foot rollout.

They directly compared it only with McLAren F1, and it was totally legitimate and accurate comparison, as I pointed out to you personally about three months ago.
 
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I believe I understand your intent here. A "performance" US-manufactured car using rollout is a precedent.

Isn't other manufacturer using inappropriate information irrelevant outside of legal systems that are based on precedent (eg US)?
Never mind the previous expectation of comparisons between Tesla vehicles with other Tesla vehicles being the issue claimed...? ;-)
Depends on if there is a legal expectation that 0-60 / 0-100 must be specified without roll out. And given this is still stuck in the Consumer Council and not an actual court yet, it may be sufficient to show that what Tesla is doing is not unprecedented (Tesla made a similar argument in their letter with comparing the advertised with the Norwegian Top Gear achieved numbers of other manufacturers).
 
Just for clarification...

You don't consider the below "directly comparing" P85D to the 85D and 70D?

If I've learned anything from this thread and others like it, there are way more ways to deflect, redirect, misdirect, obfuscate, twist, or otherwise get around an actual issue than I ever thought possible. lol.

From my perspective, the bottom line is that Tesla has lost me as a customer. If I wasn't certain about it before, after seeing Tesla's response to complaints in Norway on this issue where they're basically claiming that they're right, customers are wrong, and that the customers should have known better, oh look kittens!... Tesla is not a company I want to conduct further business with. I'll deal with them while I own my cars for what I need from them as far as that goes, but I certainly will not be providing them with any more sales. :( Sad, but I'm just not going to buy more products from a company that thought it was best to turn to and defend shady practices.
 
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From my perspective, the bottom line is that Tesla has lost me as a customer... Sad, but I'm just not going to buy more products from a company that thought it was best to turn to and defend shady practices.

Well that's strange since there's a thread you recently started about trying to buy a new battery from Tesla provided you can keep your old one.

Edit: Before I get jumped on, I do know you said:

I'll deal with them while I own my cars for what I need from them as far as that goes,

You don't need the extra battery for your car unless you can keep the old one for your project. So essentially you are getting a battery from them for your project.
 
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Just for clarification...
Here is the exchange you should look at ...
I asked a Yes or No question. Your answer didn't clarify.

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Well that's strange since there's a thread you recently started about trying to buy a new battery from Tesla provided you can keep your old one.
Strange isn't the word I'd use here, given the timeline. That battery thread preceded the PDFs re: Norway. Unless I've been reading TMC out of order again.

Unfortunate is a better word -- for both parties, Tesla and wk057. And TMC as well, IMO.
 
Strange isn't the word I'd use here, given the timeline. That battery thread preceded the PDFs re: Norway. Unless I've been reading TMC out of order again.

Unfortunate is a better word -- for both parties, Tesla and wk057. And TMC as well, IMO.

Nope - October 20, 2015:

wk057 Will you buy another Tesla product?

No, I will not. Not with the direction the company is headed. Absolutely not. I am no longer a customer, no longer an ambassador of the brand, and I'm no longer a stock holder. Given the way things have been handled over the past year the company is no longer the same company I bought into as a share holder and a customer. Until that changes the answer is a definite no.

Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery - Page 236
 
I asked a Yes or No question. Your answer didn't clarify.

It did.

Rns-e was talking about Tesla directly comparing the performance of the cars. I took it as him saying that they used it as a talking points in their presentations and pointed out that the only comparison they were talking about was to McLaren F1.
 
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If we can take anything from the Norwegian "ruling" it seems we have now learned Tesla is going to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the issue to see what sticks. The plaintiffs will likely try to keep it simple and concise but since the plaintiffs have the burden of proof they will have to respond to all of Tesla's arguments and that's likely to create enough ambiguity for the case to be dismissed.

That's just a guess though -- I'm just trying to derive what we can from what happened in Norway. No one knows what will happen in Court. A lot depends on the judge that is drawn (consumer or corporate orientated) and even then the decision could be overturned on appeal. That's why appointments to the Supreme Court are so important - because justice is suppose to be blind but it's not.

It could all come down to this man:

Is Kennedy Still the Swing Vote on the Supreme Court?

;)

Exactly.

This could, and probably will, drag on for months, because Tesla is showing every indication that they intend to fight it.