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I agree. It's fairly good except the base that has serious flaws. And I know why. I have had hifi as a hobby for 20 years. Mainly hifi for a home environment. But most of it translates into car audio. Even though you are facing different problems.
I have a Tesla 3 P. And decided I wanted to improve the sound a month ago. And the difference is what I would describe as HUGE !!. So I felt the need to char my knowledge.
The main problem whit the lower base in Tesla 3 is not the subwoofer itself. It's the positioning of the subwoofer. Here you can se the response at the driving position. This is the reason the base feel so weak, when I first got my car I honestly was thinking something was broken, but it was not. No matter what you do whit the subwoofer you will never solve the problem when having a response that looks like this.
I then connected a small subwoofer that had lying around to an external amp connected to my computer whit the measuring mic. I made several measurements placing the sub at diffent posstions in the trunk. But I could not find anything that was wey good. I finaly moved the sub inside the cabin. Placing it in the middle of back seat. And the difference was night and day. Getting good base response is always a struggle. And having experience I know that the response below using no DSP and using only one sub is very good.
The second big problem getting base in tesla 3 is the fact that tesla have a aggressive signal Rollof slope from around 42Hz and down. The reson for this is probably the fact that the original subwoofer is tuned to around 42Hz. So this is to save driver from heavy execution.
The funny thing in this is that the mid base drivers in the front doors play down to 42Hz. So in my opinion the original subwoofer do not make much sence at all. It will boost the base but not really extend it much. And the boost is as we could see very uneven, and arguably it does more harm then good.... Down below we can see the response whit the sub turned off. A Fairy nice response.
And how did i solve this problem? I built a custom box that fits between the back seats. It's a 10L ported box tuned to 33Hz.
I also use a DSP to compensate for the 42Hz cutoff problem. There is much more to say about this project. But this will have to do for now.
This is the response to date.
I have a Tesla 3 P. And decided I wanted to improve the sound a month ago. And the difference is what I would describe as HUGE !!. So I felt the need to char my knowledge.
The main problem whit the lower base in Tesla 3 is not the subwoofer itself. It's the positioning of the subwoofer. Here you can se the response at the driving position. This is the reason the base feel so weak, when I first got my car I honestly was thinking something was broken, but it was not. No matter what you do whit the subwoofer you will never solve the problem when having a response that looks like this.
I then connected a small subwoofer that had lying around to an external amp connected to my computer whit the measuring mic. I made several measurements placing the sub at diffent posstions in the trunk. But I could not find anything that was wey good. I finaly moved the sub inside the cabin. Placing it in the middle of back seat. And the difference was night and day. Getting good base response is always a struggle. And having experience I know that the response below using no DSP and using only one sub is very good.
The second big problem getting base in tesla 3 is the fact that tesla have a aggressive signal Rollof slope from around 42Hz and down. The reson for this is probably the fact that the original subwoofer is tuned to around 42Hz. So this is to save driver from heavy execution.
The funny thing in this is that the mid base drivers in the front doors play down to 42Hz. So in my opinion the original subwoofer do not make much sence at all. It will boost the base but not really extend it much. And the boost is as we could see very uneven, and arguably it does more harm then good.... Down below we can see the response whit the sub turned off. A Fairy nice response.
And how did i solve this problem? I built a custom box that fits between the back seats. It's a 10L ported box tuned to 33Hz.
I also use a DSP to compensate for the 42Hz cutoff problem. There is much more to say about this project. But this will have to do for now.
This is the response to date.
While I have some serious issues with your testing setup and methodology. I do agree that the subwoofer placement is terrible but where else was tesla supposed to put it? Anywhere else you would logically place it would eat into cargo space or reduce it's passenger carrying capacity like in your case. You might be fine with that but your avarage consumer is not. They would rather have that fraction of a presentage more cargo space.
As for OP, since you have a brand new refreshed car there isn't that much information out there especially with tesla changing the sound system for the highland. Adding your own amplifier and subwoofer is going to be a bit of work because tesla moved to a 16v battery for the low voltage side meaning your amplifier (plus line level converter and DSP if required) needs to be rated to handle 16v or you need to get a DC-DC step down converter and accept that you are literally throwing power away as heat. There's debates on the previous generation of m3 with the 16v battery on if you should wire from the battery or the penthouse while some people avoid it all together and just install an accessory battery. If you do wire your power from the battery some people say you need to delay you amplifier from turning on until the car starts to prevent fault codes from appearing. Once you get the logistics powering the amplifier out of the way it's pretty simple as you only need to disconnect the factory subwoofers from the factory amplifier, feed the output of the factory amplifier into your line level converter then feed that into your new amplifier/speakers. Being a new car I'd also recommend adding a DSP and doing some frequency tests so you can properly crossover your new subwoofer with the factory system and get the time alignment correct.
The good things is that the new M3 uses an infinite baffle setup that pumps directly into the cabin. But they made it difficult to replace their tiny woofers. I want to measure the output from the amp, but I'm afraid of breaking the car and loosening the panels. That said, I have all the equipment I could want for measurements and I have a good subwoofer laying dorment.
My previous car (Tucson hybrid) didn't have a 12v battery either, so I used a DC-DC charger limited to 10A pulling from a 15A cigarette lighter in the trunk. I may want to do the same here if there's an easily accessible 12v source in the trunk.
I'm a software guy, so the only thing stopping me is lack of confidence and experience.
My previous car (Tucson hybrid) didn't have a 12v battery either, so I used a DC-DC charger limited to 10A pulling from a 15A cigarette lighter in the trunk. I may want to do the same here if there's an easily accessible 12v source in the trunk.
I'm a software guy, so the only thing stopping me is lack of confidence and experience.
This is very telling of the
I have no complaint regarding the priorities tesla made while building the car. I totally get it. But putting better drivers and some more power to the woofers in the doors and removing the sub would probably be a better choice.
Measuring audio and doing testing in general is difficult. My measurements are far from perfect. But good enough to understand the problem and finding a solution. But to be honest you do not really need to measure. Just use your ears and it's obvious the subwoofer don't work well.
I have no complaint regarding the priorities tesla made while building the car. I totally get it. But putting better drivers and some more power to the woofers in the doors and removing the sub would probably be a better choice.
Measuring audio isn't that hard now that you can buy a decent RTA microphone for a couple of hundred bucks but the problem I had with your "testing" was that you were testing the position of the factory subwoofer but used a different subwoofer and amplifier in your subsequent tests. Changing not just one but two major variable completely invalidates the test. You cannot say definitively that the factory subwoofer location was the issue. All we can say for sure is that your subwoofer has a drastic improvement based on its location. I know you home hifi folk don't pay too much attention to time alignment but us on the sound reinforcement side of things have to understand it at a fundamental level. That is why I have such an issue with your testing as you are changing too much between tests, leaving out critical information (like what type of subwoofer enclosure), all while making assumptions about how the stock sound system is set up.
The testing was made using a factory JL audio prebuild and AMP. No somewhat functioning AMP or subwoofers could ever create what we can read in my first graph. I cant even imaging in what way it possibly could be broken to create that.
Regarding time alignment. What do you even mean?? What am I support to time align making measurement from one single source. And even if you would do the tests including the rest of the system. There is still only one subwoofer installed. In other words only one source that generate the lowest frequencies. So once again. Time align against what?
But it's all good. Keep doing what the smart people seems to suggest. Just replace the original subwoofer driver with something like a 400W one using the standard plastic box tuned to 42Hz whit a way to small port for the driver. And put it back in the same position that don't work and imagine it sound good.
How did you measure the rolloff from the factory signal? Did you use a mic or did you measure the input signal? If it's the latter, how did you compensate for it?
All of the single channel DSPs I found add ~2.5ms delay unfortunately.
I used a measuring mic. And I use on channel from a Helix DSP mini MK2.
And it's true that the subwoofer signal will be delayed a tiny bitt. But to put this in perspective, and use the brain a little bit. Let's guess that there is 2,5ms delay from DSP. It takes 2,9ms for sound to travel 1meter. I have moved the sub from the trunk to the floor in the backseat. This is probably over 2 meters. So if we assume Tesla delays the subwoofer signal to begin whit (wish i highly doubt) I should then instead of worrying about a delayed sub signal in actuality use the DSP to delay the subwoofer about 3ms. If Tesla do not delay the signal, then i have now improved time alignment for all passengers. The sound is generated from the center of the car.
Also.. 2,5ms delay. As an example 30Hz is equal to a 33ms long Sine wave. Can a human hear this? I honestly am not sure about that. But all logic tells me that you can't. If this were a tweeter install it should be very different.
Also.. In your home and you have a subwoofer for your TV stereo or whatever. And you move 0,8m in the coush an get that 2,5ms differens. Do you adjust your DSP accordingly
This is not level adjusted. But you can still se the difference. The sub is the same and at the same position. measured from driving position.
red = subwoofer off
black = subwoofer on, no external DSP
green = only subwoofer signal going directly from computer to amp.
You said in your original post that the subwoofer "Rollof slope from around 42Hz and down" while also saying the midbass woofer "play down to 42Hz". If you are to believed that would mean both drivers are overlapping and time alignment is required to prevent comb filtering especially because they are on two different planes (ie spaced apart from each other)
Just randomly stumbled upon this thread while looking for photos of Model 3's with wheels and it's funny to see those measurements echo my exact findings after my initial impressions of the sound system here;
teslamotorsclub.com
I have the sub turned all the way down because it sounds best that way. I also do not care about audio in the car at all usually as I don't listen to music in the car really, but with the integrated Apple Music, it's pretty nice and I've been playing stuff for fun at low volumes while cruising.
Model 3 Performance/Ludicrous Waiting Room
Denver just got another VIN assigned. Txt came in around 4pm MT today.
teslamotorsclub.com
I have the sub turned all the way down because it sounds best that way. I also do not care about audio in the car at all usually as I don't listen to music in the car really, but with the integrated Apple Music, it's pretty nice and I've been playing stuff for fun at low volumes while cruising.
The subwoofer in any system is always overlapping. There is never a clean cut. And the original sub is overlapping more then what i would consider to be a normal. You can hear this by just playing a sine wave av move the sub slider in the inteface of the car. If i remember correctly you can hear the sub playing upp to around 120Hz. And if it would sound better it time alignment were different is impossible to say. You need to be able to delay all the woofers.
yes it sound better whiteout the original sub. The sub adds almost no extension. And boost the rest of the base very uneven making it sound worse. It only adds more base notes whiteout any dynamic or accuracy.Just randomly stumbled upon this thread while looking for photos of Model 3's with wheels and it's funny to see those measurements echo my exact findings after my initial impressions of the sound system here;
Model 3 Performance/Ludicrous Waiting Room
Denver just got another VIN assigned. Txt came in around 4pm MT today.
I have the sub turned all the way down because it sounds best that way. I also do not care about audio in the car at all usually as I don't listen to music in the car really, but with the integrated Apple Music, it's pretty nice and I've been playing stuff for fun at low volumes while cruising.
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