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Summary of options for 3-foot requirement between main panel and gas riser
- Thread starter holeydonut
- Start date
I merged your new thread into this one since its the same topic, and this one has most of the information we know about this topic.
Something changed about the 36” rule between when I posted and today. Iirc vines said new equipment was allowed within 36 (but not within 18 inches) under certain criteria. It was supposed to make a MSP replacement even easier. Hopefully @Vines can elaborate.
I am sure whatever rule that is that @Vines is quoting has a footnote in it that says *except for @holeydonut.
(im just teasing you, its ment to be in commiseration)I replied to my Tesla advisor with the information from @Vines. They replied:
So it seems that Tesla really doesn't want to do any project with any potential risk. I'm considering switching to another company, or going all electric. Now I have started a project to replace 20-year-old furnaces/ACs and a 10-year-old water heater with heat pumps. The remaining gas appliances are a 20-year-old dryer, a cooktop and 2 fireplaces (seldom used) which are easy to move away from gas.
Greenbook Manual Online
Here is a page from the PGE greenbook with the link above.
Basically, as long as you follow these rules you can connect your new conduit to the existing service panel that is within 36" (10' vertical measurement shown in light and dark hatch above) of the gas riser as long as the panel itself is 12" (horizontally up to 10' elevation shown in light hatch) from the Gas service facility. So as long as you are 36" (straight line radius shown in grey circle area) clear of the gas vent opening, and the metal of the gas service is 18" horizontally from the service panel you could connect new conduit to the existing panel as long as your conduit that did enter the existing service panel had no other joints or couplings within the light or dark shaded area.
These rules are complicated and ever-changing, so no surprise it takes experienced professionals to know them all. Tesla is chasing the bottom and they don't necessarily want to work out of their process to give you the system YOU want. They want you to fit into their box, and they sell the system that they want. That is how they give you the lowest price.
I am not saying you are doing this, but please don't pose your requests to Tesla "This guy vines on TMC is an installer and he said the rules are XXX"
Tesla has their own rules.
As far as your other question I cannot answer that with the information given. It appears your service panel will not take a 200A breaker on the bus just looking at the width of the panel but I could be wrong. Backup switch could be used but you need to engage an installer to give you these details. Not everyone designs the same systems with the same options.
Cool, so it looks like in the latest Greenbook... they added the "radiused" measurement for conduit runs and maybe a gutter box. But the 36" non-radius requirement is still there for any sub panels, combiner boxes, or the main service panel (unless like for like).
I think the general consensus is Tesla will not go out of their way to solve your particular problem with 36" rule. Their employees aren't paid enough and their processes aren't flexible enough.
@phnix , lift the cover of your main service panel and take a picture of the label (assuming it hasn't blown away). I think you have the same Challenger 200A Main Lug Only MSP that I used to have...
Assuming you're 200A service you may want to just take it upon yourself to get an electrician out to your house and swap in a "solar ready" main service panel to replace your old unit. So then when you call back Tesla they'll see a fancy 225A solar ready busbar and brand new thing to tap into... and they'll be happy to do business with you.
Alternatively, I've PM'd you the details for a company here in NorCal East Bay that "seems to know a guy who knows a guy". My neighbor who dislikes PG&E almost as much as I do recently added solar and Enphase ESS. His installer said PG&E blindly ok'd their submission. His house has the same antiquated Challenger 200A MSP that I had. PG&E had told me to sod off and came up with myriad excludes about how a partial home backup was unsafe; but I think they may just have Beef with Sunrun and Tesla. If you go with a local installer just trying to make a buck, PG&E seems to be less strict.
I think the general consensus is Tesla will not go out of their way to solve your particular problem with 36" rule. Their employees aren't paid enough and their processes aren't flexible enough.
@phnix , lift the cover of your main service panel and take a picture of the label (assuming it hasn't blown away). I think you have the same Challenger 200A Main Lug Only MSP that I used to have...
Assuming you're 200A service you may want to just take it upon yourself to get an electrician out to your house and swap in a "solar ready" main service panel to replace your old unit. So then when you call back Tesla they'll see a fancy 225A solar ready busbar and brand new thing to tap into... and they'll be happy to do business with you.
Alternatively, I've PM'd you the details for a company here in NorCal East Bay that "seems to know a guy who knows a guy". My neighbor who dislikes PG&E almost as much as I do recently added solar and Enphase ESS. His installer said PG&E blindly ok'd their submission. His house has the same antiquated Challenger 200A MSP that I had. PG&E had told me to sod off and came up with myriad excludes about how a partial home backup was unsafe; but I think they may just have Beef with Sunrun and Tesla. If you go with a local installer just trying to make a buck, PG&E seems to be less strict.
Thanks to everyone for the replies. I promise I didn't say anything about TMC or ids in the emails to Tesla
. I have asked them to cancel the project (otherwise they will wait until Nov 8 to cancel it). It's weird that they had set a date of cancellation, but didn't tell me until I asked for updates (The last update was on Oct 5 to confirm the location of PWs). I have decided to find another company. This also gives me a chance to optimize the design e.g. with more solar panels.
Please check the pictures of the meter/MSP/label. It seems to be 200A.
. I have asked them to cancel the project (otherwise they will wait until Nov 8 to cancel it). It's weird that they had set a date of cancellation, but didn't tell me until I asked for updates (The last update was on Oct 5 to confirm the location of PWs). I have decided to find another company. This also gives me a chance to optimize the design e.g. with more solar panels.Please check the pictures of the meter/MSP/label. It seems to be 200A.
Attachments
Thanks to everyone for the replies. I promise I didn't say anything about TMC or ids in the emails to Tesla
Please check the pictures of the meter/MSP/label. It seems to be 200A.
Cool, yeah that installer I sent you will be able to re-use that main lug only main service panel without any swap or like for like. Or go with Vines and you won't have to worry about a single thing lol. Good luck!
Edit, and those folks won't use an acorn to bind your grounding rods to your natural gas riser. Barf.
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@Vines - does this part of the new greenbook actually mean you can run a metal conduit through the 36" radiused circle (as long as the ends terminate outside of the 36" radius)?
No, you can not put anything within 36" of the gas meter vent. You can run uninterrupted conduit through the diagonal hatched areas as long as none of it is within the 36" radius of the shaded area.
You are in Luck! It looks like you have the version of the 200A main service panel that has feed through lugs, and you can connect the GW2 directly to them and do whole home backup easily.Thanks to everyone for the replies. I promise I didn't say anything about TMC or ids in the emails to Tesla
Please check the pictures of the meter/MSP/label. It seems to be 200A.
Also, it looks like you are just barely allowed to connect new conduit to that existing panel as long as you avoid the 36" radius measurement. It also appears that your panel either has no main breaker or a 125A main breaker. This is probably not an issue but whoever you hire will be pulling off the dead front and seeing whats behind there to be sure.
Writers at PG&E need to stop splitting goddamn infinitives. Like if you clean up their sentence it says.
"conduit... can run completely through... the 36-inch radial clearance..."
I was curious about this, as this might effectively block any conduit for batteries/subpanels between my garage and the meter/main panel, since the gas riser is in between. I think based on the Exception being for subsection 2.4.2.E.3, and not 2.4.2.E itself, if you break out the AND, @Vines is saying it's meant to be:
"A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or joints can run completely through [the cross hatched area] outside of the 36−inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening." AND
"A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or joints can terminate/connect [in the cross hatched area] outside of the 36-inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening."
and not
"A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or joints can run completely through the 36-inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening." AND
"A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or joints can terminate/connect outside of the 36-inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening."
Which is unfortunate, as my use cases would possibly like to run conduit through that circle, otherwise to not be unsightly, would have to then go up and all the way around a 9' tall picture window....
You are close to correct, the only thing I would add is:
"A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or joints can run completely through [the cross hatched area] outside of the 36−inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening." AND
"A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or joints can terminate/connect [in the cross hatched area] outside of the 36-inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening."
The above is true as long as the termination of the new conduit to the existing equipment does not occur within 12" (up to 10') of the gas service facility.
I would observe that the greenbook illustration is clearly labeled with a ten inch maximum height (in the illustration in post 86 above), further underscoring @holeydonut's point about ambiguity in PG&E documents...(Now corrected in the on-line version of figure 2-38)
If you really needed to run conduit across that 36" radius circle, you could of course run it concealed in the wall. Open up the siding, sheathing and WRB, install the new wiring through the studs, and repair the same. Or depending on what's happening on the inside of the wall, do it from the inside.
I wonder how PG&E feels about a water table molding in the region above a gas meter. A sufficiently large one could be used to cover a not too large conduit.
Cheers, Wayne
I wonder how PG&E feels about a water table molding in the region above a gas meter. A sufficiently large one could be used to cover a not too large conduit.
Cheers, Wayne
bo3bdar
Member
I just had my service upgraded from 125A to 200A, as part of a solar install. My original equipment was right over the gas meter, and so the new box had to move outside the 36" range. My original (1966!) equipment was behind that door, but of course that won't fly nowadays.
I'm not sure if this helps or not, but this is at least an actual real world PG&E example of upgraded service, which was signed off by the inspector. You can see the cross over conduit that goes through the roof to the mast.
Apologies in advance if this is not helpful, I did not read the full thread, and just thought a real world example might be helpful.
I'm not sure if this helps or not, but this is at least an actual real world PG&E example of upgraded service, which was signed off by the inspector. You can see the cross over conduit that goes through the roof to the mast.
Apologies in advance if this is not helpful, I did not read the full thread, and just thought a real world example might be helpful.
