Sun Country to partner with ABB for high powered chargers

[wycolo]

> SCH is giving their customers the choice of what station they want to install - Chademo only or Chademo + SAE Combo. So none of their money is being wasted. It's up to their customers to decide. [Doug_G]

This is confusing. What if there are 'tons of crazy people' in the SCH customer base?
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[stopcrazypp]

I was against public money being spent to deploy CHAdeMO two years ago. I wouldn't have donated my money to do it either. I would have been perfectly happy for Nissan to get a tax incentive to spend their own money to deploy CHAdeMO.

I see your point now, you are opposed to public money for any chargers until the cars are in sufficient volume. However, Doug makes a good point: there's a chicken and egg problem that only public money can practically solve (as it did for level 2 charging), because right now the demand's still not enough for it to be profitable to run a DC charge network without government support. Sure the automakers can install some chargers, but even when they do it, it's at dealers, which in general mean a much less flexible solution. And I think it's unrealistic to expect all automakers to contribute equally, esp. given none of them, except Tesla, charges an extra fee specifically to fund a DC charging network.

There's going to be two situations really: install the dual standard chargers now for a relatively small extra cost before the Combo cars reach significant volume, or not do it and potentially have many complaining customers and end up having to retrofit or install a new charger that supports both. I think most charger owners would opt for the former, esp. given the number of automakers pledging that Combo is what they would use when they add DC charging to their cars.

 

[richkae]

I see your point now, you are opposed to public money for any chargers until the cars are in sufficient volume. However, Doug makes a good point: there's a chicken and egg problem that only public money can practically solve (as it did for level 2 charging), because right now the demand's still not enough for it to be profitable to run a DC charge network without government support. Sure the automakers can install some chargers, but even when they do it, it's at dealers, which in general mean a much less flexible solution. And I think it's unrealistic to expect all automakers to contribute equally, esp. given none of them, except Tesla, charges an extra fee specifically to fund a DC charging network.

There's going to be two situations really: install the dual standard chargers now for a relatively small extra cost before the Combo cars reach significant volume, or not do it and potentially have many complaining customers and end up having to retrofit or install a new charger that supports both. I think most charger owners would opt for the former, esp. given the number of automakers pledging that Combo is what they would use when they add DC charging to their cars.

Actually I don't want government money spent directly on chargers because:
1) I don't trust the government to not waste the money by doing it wrong. Put the chargers in the wrong place and choose the wrong chargers. They already did this on the west coast EV highway.
2) I don't trust the manufacturers to not waste the government money by asking for it to be spent on the wrong things - especially if they aren't really interested in selling EVs.
3) I doubt that for profit charging networks are going to work anyway, so throwing government money at them to get started is just wasting it.

I am fine with tax incentives defraying some of the cost of installing them.
1) The government won't be choosing what and where. Someone actually motivated to be successful will be.
2) Since its their own money, only partially offset, they wont waste it.
3) Tesla is the only one that seems to understand that installing a charging network is a necessary part of selling cars. If the others are too dumb to see that, then let them fail.
4) I would prefer that the incentives encourage partnerships and standards that support more than one manufacturer, but if it doesn't happen because the business doesn't make sense and all the networks are proprietary - then so be it.

Even if the government didn't help I think that committed manufacturers can totally afford to to build the charging network necessary to sell their cars. Tesla is proving it.

 

[Doug_G]

This is confusing. What if there are 'tons of crazy people' in the SCH customer base?

It's their money.

I see your point now, you are opposed to public money for any chargers until the cars are in sufficient volume. However, Doug makes a good point: there's a chicken and egg problem that only public money can practically solve (as it did for level 2 charging), because right now the demand's still not enough for it to be profitable to run a DC charge network without government support.

Sun Country built the Trans Canada Highway network without government support, and continues to build out the network without the government's assistance. They simply decided to do it and worked out a business model to make it possible. They are just starting to deploy chargers in the USA now.

1) I don't trust the government to not waste the money by doing it wrong. Put the chargers in the wrong place and choose the wrong chargers. They already did this on the west coast EV highway.
...
1) The government won't be choosing what and where. Someone actually motivated to be successful will be.

I'm not part of the "government can never do anything right" crowd; if you take a reasonable look at thing governments often do many things well. Yes they also screw up.

That said, it's pretty common for governments to mess up or at least badly distort charging station incentive programs. It's not that they aren't trying to do it right... the problem is, if you've never owned an EV you don't really understand how one is used. It seems people simply don't have the imagination necessary - they've been locked into the gas station model all their life. If you don't understand how the car is used, then there's not much chance you'll set up the right incentives.

As an example, Hydro Quebec has been very proactive in rolling out an extensive charging network. Only problem is, they're all 30A chargers, which is really marginal for Tesla owners. Chances are if you're doing local travel you don't need the station at all. If you're doing long distance travel that's really insufficient - it's not enough power to complete a charge overnight, never mind at a stopover.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sun Country built the Trans Canada Highway network without government support, and continues to build out the network without the government's assistance. They simply decided to do it and worked out a business model to make it possible. They are just starting to deploy chargers in the USA now.

Ah, I didn't notice that. It looked like public-private partnership (kind of like Ecotality), but looking at it closely, the Sun Country network was funded by donations. But the point still remains, it's still not possible to run a profitable DC charging network at this point. The networks that are doing okay are mainly relying on level 2 charging.

And given this network is not government funded, then I guess the points richrae is making is not applicable here. This is an example of a private network that decided offering Combo connectors make sense even before the cars are out in significant numbers.

 

[wycolo]

> It's their money. [Doug_G]

I'm just confused as to how their customers are expressing this choice. Is it a co-op where members vote by ballot, maybe on what type of fast chargers they want in their neighborhood/Province/SCH-overall, or just by choosing the cable on the EVSE that has the type of plug they favor (which would then be registered on their credit card POS slip)?

Syracuse, NY area has the first SCH charger in the US as I recall.
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[Mayhemm]

I'm just confused as to how their customers are expressing this choice. Is it a co-op where members vote by ballot, maybe on what type of fast chargers they want in their neighborhood/Province/SCH-overall, or just by choosing the cable on the EVSE that has the type of plug they favor (which would then be registered on their credit card POS slip)?

Syracuse, NY area has the first SCH charger in the US as I recall.
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SCH has had a bit of an evolving business model. In the early days of the company their goal was to complete a coast-to-coast charging network along the Trans-Canada highway in a single year. To accelerate this, SCH donated high-powered Level 2 charging stations to businesses. The business was still responsible for cost of installation. This project, the "World's Longest, Greenest Highway" was completed in December of 2012.

Now SCH acts mainly as an EV advocate. Spreading the "good news" and offering charging stations for sale. Their rollout and locations have been SCH's decision alone.

Recently, however, they unveiled their "sponsorship" program wherein members of the public (like myself) pay for a charging station and SCH will see that it is installed in a region that you designate. I have done this twice; once for Saskatchewan and once for Manitoba.

I would assume that, due to cost, the Level 3 units are being distributed without sponsorship or other public involvement. SCH will use their contacts to determine where they would be of the most use.

 

[ThosEM]

Wow, their web site at Canadas Leader in Electric Vehicle Products | Sun Country Highway sure does feature Tesla Model S imagery. I personally would regard that as false advertising if they fail to provide adapters to a Model S.

 

[Doug_G]

Wow, their web site at Canadas Leader in Electric Vehicle Products | Sun Country Highway sure does feature Tesla Model S imagery. I personally would regard that as false advertising if they fail to provide adapters to a Model S.

I don't understand what you're saying.

Tesla is offering a ChaDEmo adapter, should be available soon: Shop Tesla Gear CHAdeMO Adapter

 

[Canuck]

“Whether someone owns a Mitsubishi iMiEV, Nissan LEAF, Tesla Model S, BMW i3, or any other EV coming to market, we will have a charging solution to get drivers to 80% state of charge in about 25 minutes.”

This seem like false advertising to me. At 80 Amps it takes 4 hours to charge a 85kWh to an 80% state of charge.

 

[Doug_G]

“Whether someone owns a Mitsubishi iMiEV, Nissan LEAF, Tesla Model S, BMW i3, or any other EV coming to market, we will have a charging solution to get drivers to 80% state of charge in about 25 minutes.”

This seem like false advertising to me. At 80 Amps it takes 4 hours to charge a 85kWh to an 80% state of charge.

This is definitely an error. I've let them know and they will fix it.

 

[Mayhemm]

Interesting that they now have the Level 3 stations on their charger page. Understandably, you have to call for pricing info.

 

[miimura]

Interesting that they now have the Level 3 stations on their charger page. Understandably, you have to call for pricing info.

Interestingly, the Terra 53 (50kW) is CCS or CHAdeMO or Dual while the Terra 23 (20kW) is only CCS or Dual. This is from the Sun Country PDF datasheets.

 

[Mayhemm]

Interestingly, the Terra 53 (50kW) is CCS or CHAdeMO or Dual while the Terra 23 (20kW) is only CCS or Dual. This is from the Sun Country PDF datasheets.

Maybe CHAdeMO can't be properly configured for 20kW or something?

 

[miimura]

Maybe CHAdeMO can't be properly configured for 20kW or something?

Dual means CCS and CHAdeMO on the same rig, with only one usable at a time, so the CHAdeMO definitely works. Fuji also has a 25kW CHAdeMO unit that can be connected to 208Y120V power, which allows installation at facilities with lesser electrical service. These Terra units and other 43kW-50kW units require 480V.

 

[Mayhemm]

Dual means CCS and CHAdeMO on the same rig, with only one usable at a time, so the CHAdeMO definitely works.

Yeah, sorry. I missed dual being available on the Terra23.

 

[PoweredByRain]

I don't understand what you're saying.

Tesla is offering a ChaDEmo adapter, should be available soon: Shop Tesla Gear CHAdeMO Adapter

Tesla has been "offering" a CHAdeMO adapter for a long time now. If you believe "soon" in Tesla-speak means "soon", then you haven't been paying attention.

Speaking as someone who has charged a Leaf using CHAdeMO: the standard is absolutely hideous. The connector is unwieldy and unreliable (which is odd, given the big lever, you would think it would be one of those solid things that go "clunk", but you actually have to align it carefully). I hope this thing dies a quick death. SAE Combo will be much easier, almost trivial, to interface to the Model S.

 

[PoweredByRain]

Sure. I'll go with "close to zero".
I bet that if/when these chargers get installed the SAE DC plug is "almost never" used for the first couple years.

I'll take that bet. Two years is a long time. The BMW i3 alone will ensure there's some demand for the SAE plug, and it's probably a safe bet that there will be other cars produced that use it. I wouldn't actually be surprised if the i3 outsold the Leaf. With only Nissan behind CHAdeMO, I think its long-term prospects are not good.

Even if Tesla makes an SAE DC adapter, and it was half the price of the CHAdeMO one, I will probably buy the CHAdeMO one because it will be usable more places and I am sure most others will as well.
So if I visit one of those, I would end up using the CHAdeMO plug and ignoring the SAE plug.

That's your choice. I have a feeling that the SAE DC adapter might be a whole lot less than 1/2 the price. It will be interesting to see.

 

[wycolo]

> Speaking as someone who has charged a Leaf using CHAdeMO: the standard is absolutely hideous. The connector is unwieldy and unreliable (which is odd, given the big lever, you would think it would be one of those solid things that go "clunk", but you actually have to align it carefully). I hope this thing dies a quick death. SAE Combo will be much easier, almost trivial, to interface to the Model S. [PoweredByRain]

Eww, not a good review. I had my doubts about Chademo chargers in general, to whit: will anyone respond if one is out of commission and how soon, etc? Do Chademo chargers have the famed Tesla dead-nuts reliability and responsive service? Now we have to worry about the flakey plugs as well. I may pass on this adapter and just take the longer* route that has a Tesla SC.

* ~40 miles longer each way, six or 8 times a year. Marginal call.
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[PoweredByRain]

> Speaking as someone who has charged a Leaf using CHAdeMO: the standard is absolutely hideous. The connector is unwieldy and unreliable (which is odd, given the big lever, you would think it would be one of those solid things that go "clunk", but you actually have to align it carefully). I hope this thing dies a quick death. SAE Combo will be much easier, almost trivial, to interface to the Model S. [PoweredByRain]

Eww, not a good review. I had my doubts about Chademo chargers in general, to whit: will anyone respond if one is out of commission and how soon, etc? Do Chademo chargers have the famed Tesla dead-nuts reliability and responsive service? Now we have to worry about the flakey plugs as well. I may pass on this adapter and just take the longer route that has a Tesla SC.
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Well, it's not that bad, I always got it to work. It just surprised me that it has any degree of finickiness (if that's a word!) to it. It stuns me how easy the Tesla supercharger cables are to handle as compared to CHAdeMO, especially given that Tesla superchargers are more than double the maximum power. Normally I'd be against a company creating its own standard, but given the circumstances I think Tesla had no choice.