Supercharging Nightmare Begins

[gnuarm]

This whole discussion (which I am completely on board with), tells me something - that the intuition that I have (having spent 30 years in the auto industry) that long distance charging (supercharging, if you will) is going to be the major gating factor to wholesale adoption of EVs, is true. The average driver (i.e., if converting to EV from ICE) is going to be ENRAGED if there are problems with getting a charge (particularly when traveling cross-country). If this crowd of automakers who have announced upcoming EVs don't step up to create a nationwide (and, I guess world-wide) heavy duty infrastructure of high speed charging stations (I'm talking multiple 100 kw chargers at every gas station and truck stop), they can look forward to a MAJOR FAIL on their plans for rolling out an EV fleet. Listen to me, GM, Daimler, VW, etc.

I have been having exactly this discussion in other threads. Up until now these cars have been bought by the "early adopters" who have a unique perspective on their car's limitations. Starting with the model 3 we are going to see a lot more buyers who fall outside that same group, tending more toward the typical car owner who wants to drive the car, not treat it as a science experiment. Personally I am very much the scientist, but I am often frustrated by the lack of accessible charging, in my case, a near total lack of charging in some of the locations I travel to.

I agree 100% that Tesla not only has to build more and better cars, but in order to maintain a lead in the industry they need to build on their success in expanding the charging network. Tesla has done a great job in getting product designed and on the market. But going forward the market will be created by demand from the much more typical car owner who isn't interested in being inconvenienced. It will take half a decade for the other auto makers to encourage private charging networks comparable to the Tesla network, but by that point they should have found their feet in battery electric vehicle production and easily overtake Tesla in car range, sales volume and price.

It doesn't all have to be Superchargers, but Superchargers are the "face" of charging and will need to be available and functional. We also need widespread level 2 charging where we shop, work and live. To paraphrase... well, someone... It's about the charging, stupid!

Oh, and don't forget to improve the range estimations and trip planning. They need to be more accurate and flexible.

 

[gnuarm]

folks in urban settings often don't have the ability to just install a plug like home owners do. They need solutions from their high density housing owners, from the city, or need to use the Superchargers. I was wondering if charging at an urban supercharger at max 72kw is safer for the battery vs the 120kw rate -- seems like that may be another benefit from this new supercharger.

There are threads on this issue. Can't say I have read every post, but from what I have seen it appears the only verifiable cases of fast DC charging being an issue are with the older 90 kWh battery packs in the model S and X autos. I haven't found any reports of fast charging being an issue with the newer battery packs.

 

[gnuarm]

Would something like this be an option? Quick 220 Systems: Model A220-15D For Equipment with US/Canadian Plugs

I haven't tried it yet but was thinking of picking one up for overnight stays where a charger isn't available.

From what I can see this device doesn't actually convert anything. A 240 volt circuit has two hot wires, each 120 volts from the neutral, but of opposite phasing so when measured between the two you get 240 volts.

The Quick 220 must be plugged into two separate 120 volt outlets which are on opposite phases of the 240 volt circuit. Running both phases of a 240 volt circuit as 120 volt outlets is not uncommon on commercial properties, but you may or may not have access to both phases close to each other. In a residential system the two phases are very uncommonly run to the same room much less the same outlet.

Don't assume the Quick 220 will work at all locations.

 

[Davetp]

From what I can see this device doesn't actually convert anything. A 240 volt circuit has two hot wires, each 120 volts from the neutral, but of opposite phasing so when measured between the two you get 240 volts.

The Quick 220 must be plugged into two separate 120 volt outlets which are on opposite phases of the 240 volt circuit. Running both phases of a 240 volt circuit as 120 volt outlets is not uncommon on commercial properties, but you may or may not have access to both phases close to each other. In a residential system the two phases are very uncommonly run to the same room much less the same outlet.

Don't assume the Quick 220 will work at all locations.

I have a quick 220. I use in my underground parking lot in Brooklyn, NY. The lot is suppose to be getting an urban supercharger but it’s been delayed.

I am fortunate to have acces to two 110 outlets on opposite phases of the circuit. I have the 20 amp version.

I get 9 mi/hr from it. With trickle charging I got 4 mi/hr. It makes a huge difference now getting 9 mi/hr, as I am always able to get fully charged overnight.

There is also an urban supercharger about 2.5 miles away, and it’s usually empty.

 

[CalBlue 85D]

Part of the problem is charging to 100%. I’ve seen so many people spend that extra 40 minutes to get from 80 to 100 and it really slows things down for everyone else......

 

[gnuarm]

Part of the problem is charging to 100%. I’ve seen so many people spend that extra 40 minutes to get from 80 to 100 and it really slows things down for everyone else......

Maybe that is a good reason to propagate the myth about 100% charging harming the battery... assuming it is a myth. I don't charge to 100% at a Supercharger because toward the end it doesn't charge any faster than at home.

 

[Oldschool496]

Which S.C. IN FL?

Turnpike-Turkey Lake.

Never hardly anybody there. That Friday, homecoming weekend for UF, weather was excellent first cool day in South Florida. I left Palm Beach Gardens about 12:05pm, by the time I got to TLSC 2:20ish watching the whole way on the UI, slots were slowly filling. 2 hours and 15 minutes.

SC was full by the time I got there. I did not wait long thank god, but as I said, a local young man, had gone out of his way probably to SC on the turnpike in his new "Tesla product". As cars were lining up he's looking at his app, "just a little more". There was another now I recall, brand new Product. He was impressing two ladies that were with him in the car. New product is anything new Tesla. I do not discriminate hopefully.

I'm eyeballing the young man kinda hard as we are discussing where he lives. by the time he left and I got in there, there were 4 others waiting. It was a small, very small slice of how Californians live with SC network.

Sunday coming home like normal. That's me at the far end of the photo. I did take a pic of the UI Friday though as I was approaching. I should have taken pic of those waiting. It was my own personal history of first wait at SC anywhere. Good comradery after start of charge as usual. Met guy who works for Tesla in solar division, he also had New product.

Now going forward, just may have to do things differently here and there to stay a step ahead. I could of also been lighter on the pedal that day, resulting in using less time at the SC myself. Being heavy on the pedal does not equate to savings of time at all while Supercharging. That day it was a full hour to move along to my dest. I'm in a 75D AP-1, so I'm "burning the candle pretty hard". Safe travels everyone.

 

[Oldschool496]

I get 9 mi/hr from it. With trickle charging I got 4 mi/hr. It makes a huge difference now getting 9 mi/hr, as I am always able to get fully charged overnight.

You have it made "currently" pun intended. Thats perfect actually. You can quietly plug in and live from day to day in your urban environ. You also have access to other alternatives. Its a dream. Were all living our own dreams in our electric cars. I still cannot believe it, even knowing way too much of the full science behind it.

Never ever going to a gas station, spilling gas on your foot or clothes and the smell. Then pay for gas? What?? Are you crazy.

Lucky we are at, where we are. Enjoy

 

[hill]

Would something like this be an option? Quick 220 Systems: Model A220-15D For Equipment with US/Canadian Plugs

I haven't tried it yet but was thinking of picking one up for overnight stays where a charger isn't available.

with basic electrical knowledge, you can build your own, which is what I did. The downside is that if one of your two legs of 120V is on a gfi, it won't work because there's nothing coming back on the neutral. You can even get around this by using a one-to-one isolation Transformer, but it will add about 35 lb or so to your 240V project.

.......snip..... I was wondering if charging at an urban supercharger at max 72kw is safer for the battery vs the 120kw rate -- seems like that may be another benefit from this new supercharger.

the great thing about hard core/daytime/nonstop supercharger overuse in South OC - the nozzles as well as other components are getting so much wear & serviced so infrequently - those 100+ kW charges are almost a bygone era - even charging with no one on the other end of the pair. But MAN! the traction packs are going to last a long - long time.

.

 

[Davetp]

‍

You have it made "currently" pun intended. Thats perfect actually. You can quietly plug in and live from day to day in your urban environ. You also have access to other alternatives. Its a dream. Were all living our own dreams in our electric cars. I still cannot believe it, even knowing way too much of the full science behind it.

Never ever going to a gas station, spilling gas on your foot or clothes and the smell. Then pay for gas? What?? Are you crazy.

Lucky we are at, where we are. Enjoy

Ha! Indeed it’s working out well.

The quick 220 I bought has about 30 feet of cable for each outlet. I had to buy a NEMA 6-20 adapter form TESLA to use with the quick 220.

It’s a bit of a production pulling out the charger every night and running the wires (I don’t leave the quick 220 with them, they asked that I keep it with me) but it really only takes a few minutes.

Before I took delivery of my Model X I didn’t fully appreciate that the range on the 75D battery was as variable as it has been. I love the car and everything about it, it’s the best car I have ever owned....that being said I do feel that when you own one in an urban setting you are a bit of an “early adopter.”

Luckily there is a huge influx of lots in my neighborhood with new TESLA chargers. And it looks like the one I am in now will be the next urban supercharger location.

All that being said you still have to be willing to pay for a monthly spot (which I was already with my ICE that the model X replaced) which can be between $300-500 a month here.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Seems like most everything is super crowded in San Francisco. Traffic is horrendous. Even the HOV lanes are packed. Getting across bridges (even when paying an extra toll) can be backed up for a long time. Stores are crowded, sidewalks are crowded with walkers and scooters. Buildings are crowded, and gas stations often have lines as well. BART cars run out of seats so commuters need to stand the entire trip. Even the Tesla factory is crowded itself. Not enough parking for their workers, long waits for vehicle deliveries as well as service.
Empty parking on the street is non existent. Even pay lots fill up fast. Trying to park in a BART commuter lot requires you to get their early. Movies and nice restaurants are crowded at lunch as well as Friday and Saturday nights. The many parks are crowded with little parking available on nice days.

Same thing with Superchargers. Since they are either FREE or less expensive than gas, they tend to be a huge draw. Most Tesla owners currently charge for free, so there will never be enough. The release of the more affordable Model 3, with included free Supercharging has made the matter even worse.

If you want the fastest charging (often free as well) you sometimes need to wait.

Seems like Tesla has doubled the amount of Bay Area chargers over the last year, but with so many owners using them, instead of home/work charging, the lines are to be expected.

 

[CalBlue 85D]

Seems like most everything is super crowded in San Francisco.

Indeed! I've even heard that it's so crowded that no one goes there anymore..... ; )

 

[gnuarm]

Seems like most everything is super crowded in San Francisco. Traffic is horrendous. Even the HOV lanes are packed. Getting across bridges (even when paying an extra toll) can be backed up for a long time. Stores are crowded, sidewalks are crowded with walkers and scooters. Buildings are crowded, and gas stations often have lines as well. BART cars run out of seats so commuters need to stand the entire trip. Even the Tesla factory is crowded itself. Not enough parking for their workers, long waits for vehicle deliveries as well as service.
Empty parking on the street is non existent. Even pay lots fill up fast. Trying to park in a BART commuter lot requires you to get their early. Movies and nice restaurants are crowded at lunch as well as Friday and Saturday nights. The many parks are crowded with little parking available on nice days.

Yeah, that is the way it is in DC... oh, wait, you said San Francisco. Yeah, there too I guess.

Same thing with Superchargers. Since they are either FREE or less expensive than gas, they tend to be a huge draw. Most Tesla owners currently charge for free, so there will never be enough. The release of the more affordable Model 3, with included free Supercharging has made the matter even worse.

I don't really think it is about the "free". A full charge is $15 or less in most areas of the country. I'm not going to bother with saving $15 unless it is very easy. I think for many there aren't other options that are as fast or convenient, even with the wait. This is my bone with Tesla. They planned for explosive growth with the model 3. That was Elon's wet dream to sell tons and tons of model 3s. That's why a year ago they announced they would be installing a lot more chargers in and around cities rather than just along the highways. They understand their market. In the cities there are a lot more potential customers who can't charge at home. If you can't charge at work you don't have any other options than fast charging on the way.

Seems like Tesla has doubled the amount of Bay Area chargers over the last year, but with so many owners using them, instead of home/work charging, the lines are to be expected.

Yes, that is the problem. I looked it up and 60% of homes in the US are detached which are pretty much the only ones that can have home charging. There are a few town houses and semi-detached with the ability to charge (think driveways and/or garages), but really it's going to be around 60%. So 40% of potential customers can't charge at home and there just isn't anywhere else to speak of other than the Superchargers.

So many cars, so little charging.

 

[TexasEV]

I looked it up and 60% of homes in the US are detached which are pretty much the only ones that can have home charging. There are a few town houses and semi-detached with the ability to charge (think driveways and/or garages), but really it's going to be around 60%.

The more relevant statistic would be what percentage of new car sales are made to people in detached homes. I would bet that it’s far greater than 60%.

 

[nwdiver]

Okay, it's impossible to install a 220 outlet anywhere. I'm sure you have visited with the governing body of your housing and they flatly refused due to chance of a small child getting killed when touching the charge station.

??? Do they understand the child-car relationship from a physics perspective ??? There's a ~10,000x greater chance that a car would hurt a child than a charging station would. Why haven't they banned cars?

 

[gnuarm]

The more relevant statistic would be what percentage of new car sales are made to people in detached homes. I would bet that it’s far greater than 60%.

Ok, so please provide it! What number would you consider to be "far greater than 60%"?

As long as we are wishing for statistics I'd love to compare that to the percentage of BEV buyers living in detached homes. I think only Tesla would be able to provide that sort of data, at least until the next census perhaps.

 

[Lasttoy]

Yes, the little 3 rabbits are everywhere. I see the charging station full everytime i pass it. I just got back from DC trip, 95 was full of them.
Most dont have home charging, so we will see them at SC.

 

[VT_EE]

Move to the Midwest....no issues here!

East Coast is fine too!

 

[VT_EE]

Yes, the little 3 rabbits are everywhere. I see the charging station full everytime i pass it. I just got back from DC trip, 95 was full of them.
Most dont have home charging, so we will see them at SC.

“Most don’t have home charging”. How on earth do you know that? When you get some facts to back up that statement, please let us know.

 

[TexasEV]

Yes, the little 3 rabbits are everywhere. I see the charging station full everytime i pass it. I just got back from DC trip, 95 was full of them.
Most dont have home charging, so we will see them at SC.

Every Model 3 owner I know in Austin has home charging. In fact many of them used to be Model S owners.