Supercharging Rock and Hard Place

[gnuarm]

AMEN, BROTHER!!!!

All you folk that charge at a supercharger because it's cheaper than charging at home, call your electrician and get an outlet installed. Charge at home. Some folk even have gotten an outlet installed at their apartment or condo. Don't be so cheap. You can afford a Tesla. You can afford an outlet.

Hey, Tesla sells the cars based on fuel cost savings and I got mine at a time when they needed sales enough that they offered free unlimited supercharging. I'm banking on the fuel savings of using Superchargers to allow me to keep driving the thing when I am old and gray...er.

Where I am there is only one charger that has regular congestion... so far, Gaithersburg, MD. Although Haymarket, VA had 6 of 10 chargers in use last time I was there. I had to watch my end of charge because you can't depend on the notifications. I guess they keep selling Tesla's, don't they?

 

[darth_vad3r]

Obviously you don't need it. Nearly every usage of my car is a trip when I will need to charge. Tesla doesn't want to waste other's time and I don't want to waste my time by having to come back before returning home. It's already enough of a PITA to never be sure of how much of the battery I will use combined with the much more limited range and the sparse availability of Superchargers... well, I don't like driving out of my way just because I own an EV. But then I guess Mark Twain was right. A Tesla comes under the heading of "all the modern inconveniences".

Puck Tesla. If I need 90% or even 95%, it is in no one's interest for me to return a second time to charge.

Except if you return to charge a 2nd time after going somewhere and then returning, then you will charge that 10-15% WAY faster from say 20% to 35% then you would have by charging from 80 to 95%. So you'll actually save time by doing that.

If you actually need 95% to get to where you are going then you are cutting it pretty close anyways, no?

20% -> 60% charge done twice is MUCH MUCH faster than one 20% to 100% charge.

 

[gnuarm]

Except if you return to charge a 2nd time after going somewhere and then returning, then you will charge that 10-15% WAY faster from say 20% to 35% then you would have by charging from 80 to 95%. So you'll actually save time by doing that.

No, I have to drive 25 miles out of my way to charge if I don't have enough. If I have to return to charge at the busy station, I'm going to sit and charge to 80% so I don't have to worry about charging for the rest of the trip.

If you actually need 95% to get to where you are going then you are cutting it pretty close anyways, no?

Not every part of the trip is about "getting to the next charger". I drive to the destination and then have some local travel. The local travel is unpredictable just as most people's local driving is. The nearest charger is a really crappy site to get to because of the traffic. Another charger almost as close has better traffic, but with nothing to do while sitting there charging, an outlet mall that doesn't open until 10. I usually need to top off early in the day.

20% -> 60% charge done twice is MUCH MUCH faster than one 20% to 100% charge.

Just the opposite when I have to drive 50 miles round trip to use the charger. Even at the charger I have to charge another 20% to make up for the trip! The simple math only covers the simple cases which assume there's always a convenient charger. Even the car will route me through various Superchargers on my trip from MD to TN but fail to take into account that I MUST charge in Knoxville on the way as there is no level 3 charging in Crossville and it's 120 miles round trip.

 

[darth_vad3r]

Not every part of the trip is about "getting to the next charger". I drive to the destination and then have some local travel. The local travel is unpredictable just as most people's local driving is. The nearest charger is a really crappy site to get to because of the traffic. Another charger almost as close has better traffic, but with nothing to do while sitting there charging, an outlet mall that doesn't open until 10. I usually need to top off early in the day.

During your local travel, you have no opportunity to plug in at a level 2 charger while doing whatever for a couple hours?

Or overnight L1 if you are staying the night?

 

[gnuarm]

During your local travel, you have no opportunity to plug in at a level 2 charger while doing whatever for a couple hours?

Or overnight L1 if you are staying the night?

I've used the L1 at friends' houses. 3 mph! Not very useful. I run more than that off in the day. Plus it's such a PITA to drag out the 50 foot heavy duty extension cord and the heavy Tesla cable. Mostly I do this if I need another 10% to get to the Supercharger in Haymarket which is on my way rather than the closer charger in Gaithersburg. I think the time I did that I still had to stop at a Tesla Destination charger in Leesburg to be sure I got to Haymarket, lol.

I've also used the five L2 chargers at the hospital if I feel like going to the cafeteria for lunch (which actually isn't too bad). But they are in a parking deck on two different levels. Last time I was there three model 3's had one level in use but I found a free charger up on the top level. Not even 6 kW! 204 volts and less than 30 amps for some reason. I've also used a L2 near the bank and got all of 1% back on the car while my friend did his business. Didn't even recover the charge used to get there.

Sorry, I don't mind sitting another 10-15 minutes to get from 80% to 90%. I do very much mind making a trip just to charge and L2 chargers suck unless you are staying at a hotel overnight or while working. They have all of two L2 chargers at the local train station which I used one day when I really needed charging. I drove all around the south end of Frederick looking for a decent charger and finally found this one that worked. Every other time I've checked it just out of curiosity both are in use while people are at work.

If L2 chargers were much more plentiful they could be much more useful. It may have been Ed Begley Jr who said "ABC - always be charging". Universal L2 can do that. Local charging doesn't have to be about Superchargers or Urban chargers.

 

[rhaekar]

Obviously you don't need it. Nearly every usage of my car is a trip when I will need to charge. Tesla doesn't want to waste other's time and I don't want to waste my time by having to come back before returning home. It's already enough of a PITA to never be sure of how much of the battery I will use combined with the much more limited range and the sparse availability of Superchargers... well, I don't like driving out of my way just because I own an EV. But then I guess Mark Twain was right. A Tesla comes under the heading of "all the modern inconveniences".

Puck Tesla. If I need 90% or even 95%, it is in no one's interest for me to return a second time to charge.

You're reacting like they're doing this to every SC.

8% will have the limit 24/7 and 9% will have the variable limit.

We wouldn't have this issue if locals weren't always using the SC for the daily/local charging but that's on Tesla for keeping unlimited supercharging free w/o any proximity limits or charge time limits.

This is a good step in the right direction to try and free up spots at the SC for people on trips that actually need it.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I've used the L1 at friends' houses. 3 mph! Not very useful. I run more than that off in the day. Plus it's such a PITA to drag out the 50 foot heavy duty extension cord and the heavy Tesla cable.

Interesting, in the SR+ I get 7-8km/hr (4.4-5mph) which for me is 22-25% overnight (12 hours). So I could supercharge to 75%, then do that for zero extra time (1min to plug in), or spend probably another 30 minutes at the SC to get from 75 to 100.

 

[gnuarm]

Interesting, in the SR+ I get 7-8km/hr (4.4-5mph) which for me is 22-25% overnight (12 hours). So I could supercharge to 75%, then do that for zero extra time (1min to plug in), or spend probably another 30 minutes at the SC to get from 75 to 100.

If you are talking about km instead of miles then you likely have a 240 volt outlet, either 9 or 13 amps. Either one is more power than 120 volts at 15 amps. Seems the electronics of the chargers suck off the first 400 watts only leaving us in the US with about 1 kW which is 3 mph in a model X or about 4 mph in a 3. Any boost to this wattage number is pure profit so you can get a higher charging rate. If you can get 2% per hour from 4.5 mph, your battery has to be small. I'm talking a 100 kWh battery, so 1 kW gives 10% in 10 hours.

As I've pointed out, the charger is some 25 miles away, so I lose 20 kWh just driving there.

 

[gnuarm]

You're reacting like they're doing this to every SC.

8% will have the limit 24/7 and 9% will have the variable limit.

We wouldn't have this issue if locals weren't always using the SC for the daily/local charging but that's on Tesla for keeping unlimited supercharging free w/o any proximity limits or charge time limits.

I think it is a fallacy that very many people use Superchargers when they could charge at home just as well. If you cut off Supercharging close to home anyone living in an apartment or town house would have no way to charge.

This is a good step in the right direction to try and free up spots at the SC for people on trips that actually need it.

It's a stop gap measure by a company that is panicked over dealing with very bad finances. Expect more seemingly foot shots in the future.

The reality is they should be having champagne parties at the chargers to attract potential customers, but that would be a bit too expensive. So instead they are rationing charging.

 

[gnuarm]

Oh, I wish people would stop talking about charging to 100%. Yes, that is very slow and has other issues as well. I nearly never do that, only when wanting to balance the battery once a quarter. I've yet to see any impact, so maybe I'll do it once every two quarters.

 

[aaron0k]

I don't really see this as a big deal since (1) it only affects a small part of the chargers that are already overcrowded and (2) according to Electrek the limit can be bypassed if necessary when you are routed to the charger via the trip planner, so it shouldn't have any impact on long-distance travel.

I charge at home, but know a few who don't have that luxury.

There's a small percentage of Tesla owners out there (in dense areas like SoCal/HK) who bought Tesla's and do not have the ability to "charge" at home... people who dwell in condos, apartments, or otherwise have to use street parking... they bought their cars because they knew they could use local SuperChargers to top-up when needed.

No comment on whether they're abusing that 'right' or not; however this will effectively cut their range by 20%... unless they choose other charging systems.

I'm not a fan of Tesla constantly changing the rules... the value of free unlimited supercharging just got decreased for all of us.

 

[darth_vad3r]

If you are talking about km instead of miles then you likely have a 240 volt outlet, either 9 or 13 amps. Either one is more power than 120 volts at 15 amps. Seems the electronics of the chargers suck off the first 400 watts only leaving us in the US with about 1 kW which is 3 mph in a model X or about 4 mph in a 3. Any boost to this wattage number is pure profit so you can get a higher charging rate. If you can get 2% per hour from 4.5 mph, your battery has to be small. I'm talking a 100 kWh battery, so 1 kW gives 10% in 10 hours.

As I've pointed out, the charger is some 25 miles away, so I lose 20 kWh just driving there.

I gave you the numbers in miles too. I’m talking about L1, 120V outlet, 12A, 114-115V. 7-8km/hr or about 5mph. This is a 3 SR+ which has 50kWh (ish) battery.

I guess the better efficiency of the 3 gives me better charge speed in mph. 50-60 miles added overnight.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I charge at home, but know a few who don't have that luxury.

There's a small percentage of Tesla owners out there (in dense areas like SoCal/HK) who bought Tesla's and do not have the ability to "charge" at home... people who dwell in condos, apartments, or otherwise have to use street parking... they bought their cars because they knew they could use local SuperChargers to top-up when needed.

No comment on whether they're abusing that 'right' or not; however this will effectively cut their range by 20%... unless they choose other charging systems.

I'm not a fan of Tesla constantly changing the rules... the value of free unlimited supercharging just got decreased for all of us.

Why will it cut their range 20%? People who charge at home don’t normally charge to 100%. That’s not recommended for battery health. I charge to 80% or sometimes 90%. I only charge to 100% if I’m going on a trip and the first SC might be out of range or leave me too low for comfort starting at 90%.

If you can’t charge at home and rely on supercharging, maybe they can open up some paid slots and leave some free slots. If you want to “home charge” you can use the paid slots and pay to get to 100% if you want to. Maybe pay by time. Then people can do the math on e.g. if it’s better to charge from 20% to 80% 4 times a month instead of 20% to 100% 3 times a month.

If the location isn’t far out of your way I’m guessing the more frequent but faster charging from 20 to 80 is overall faster anyways.

 

[darth_vad3r]

As I've pointed out, the charger is some 25 miles away, so I lose 20 kWh just driving there.

Wow. What are you driving? An X? Is that right?

My 3 would get almost 100 miles on 20kWh. At least 90.

 

[Zoomit]

the value of free unlimited supercharging just got decreased for all of us.

On the contrary, SC stations should now be more available since this encourages folks to move on and not reside in stalls. Remember you can always override the 80% limit and get a full charge if you need it.

 

[gnuarm]

On the contrary, SC stations should now be more available since this encourages folks to move on and not reside in stalls. Remember you can always override the 80% limit and get a full charge if you need it.

Do you have any reason to believe this will persist? They regularly update software on the cars. I expect to see updates on the Superchargers as well. There's no reason to believe they will continue to allow charging past 80% with such a simple tweek. It may be just an update away.

 

[juliusa]

Another "the sky is falling" thread. Nothing to see here. It will be fine....really.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Well, it would have been helpful earlier this week when the Salina SC was not reachable due to flooding and there was a nearby CCS location that was reachable. Also I don't believe it will be $500 because a CCS adapter is far simpler than the CHAdeMO adapter. The main issue is the lack of CCS stations so that there are fewer places to use them (Exception: Canada has a well built out CCS network in many areas.)

In Canada CCS and Chademo are pretty much equal.

 

[gnuarm]

Another "the sky is falling" thread. Nothing to see here. It will be fine....really.

I would agree it is not a huge deal if it weren't for the Tesla financial issues. So far Tesla cars have been mainly a curiosity. But people are seeing Teslas on the road and are starting to look into them. I get asked questions all the time while charging.

I keep saying this and many disagree, but charging is the single biggest issue that people have uncertainty about with EVs. It's an entirely different paradigm than the ICE fueling concept. Most people don't get that. It will take major adjustments to the way people think. Most people don't get that either including a lot of people here. The Supercharging network is the way to make the majority more comfortable with buying a Tesla. Electrify America is doing the same thing for other EVs.

Every thing that happens to Supercharging that reduces it's user friendliness makes non-EV owners less likely to buy a Tesla. The more charging stations out there the faster ICE owners will become interested in buying EVs. Driving to a filling station to refuel is implanted in the consciousness of ICE owners. Knowing there is a Supercharger in town will do a lot more to ease their minds about EV ownership than telling them a hundred times they can charge at home. Hearing about congestion or charging restrictions will scare them off faster than a holiday weekend shark report.

But then it is easy to be in denial.

 

[juliusa]

I would agree it is not a huge deal if it weren't for the Tesla financial issues.

Unrelated.

I forget even what your last "sky is falling" thread was. Life seems to go on.