Tesla acquires super cap company Maxwell

[Cosmacelf]

https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/tesla-acquires-ultracapacitor-battery-manufacturer

For a cheap price too. Will be interesting to see exactly why...

 

[Cosmacelf]

Also, I wonder if Tesla will start at some point to make their own battery cells? The partnership with Panasonic has seemed rock solid over the years, but Tesla has a habit of throwing their suppliers over board and manufacturing key technologies in house.

 

[Krash]

When you look at the effect of max power output on acceleration it is clear that for those few several seconds having a bank of capacitors is much better than making the entire battery be able to produce that much power all the time.

I wonder if they will have larger banks for track mode, or if dumping regen into capacitor banks is efficient enough at the track.

I know electrek thinks this is about dry electrode batteries, but if that technology was any good the company should have sold for way more than 2x revenues. Frankly this could have just been an engineering talent acquisition.

 

[dww12]

What can/will this do for the P cars? Can we get more hard regen (even in cold) and no voltage sag on acceleration? What could a 1-2kwh ultra cap do for 1/4 mi times?

 

[Krash]

A related TMC battery discussion here: Tesla acquires super cap company Maxwell

 

[StealthP3D]

I know electrek thinks this is about dry electrode batteries, but if that technology was any good the company should have sold for way more than 2x revenues. Frankly this could have just been an engineering talent acquisition.

Never judge a good deal as an average deal because it was too cheap! In other words, there really is such a thing as a cheap acquisition price (and the low price might benefit both the buyer and the seller). It could be a company with the majority ownership tightly held by a few people, probably scientists, not business people. And the benefits of going with a company like Tesla and their historically lightning fast commercialization schedules could pay big dividends to the sellers depending upon other guarantees or compensation they were promised in addition to the Tesla stock.

Bear case: Price too cheap for the technology to be very valuable.

Bull case: Owners/developers know they could sell the tech to a Japanese company like Panasonic (or Korean, Chinese company) for $1 billion or more. But they know their participation in the eventual commercialization will not be all that meaningful, being over-ridden by the huge corporation's internal research and development efforts, further large financial gains may take years or not be that large. Perhaps they feel Tesla can bring their technology to market more quickly and this will cement Tesla's lead in the EV revolution and the value of the TSLA shares that they took as payment will soar and they will continue to participate meaningfully in the commercialization of their ground-breaking discoveries all while being associated with a company whose stated goals align with their values.

I lean towards the latter as Tesla is at a point in their growth that they can't afford to throw that kind of money at overly speculative investments that won't pay off for many years. For this reason, I take this as a HUGE net positive for Tesla.

I recently learned that Musk, before he left the University, had a focus on super-capacitors so I would expect he has the necessary background to appropriately appraise new developments in this field.

 

[ewoodrick]

It may help, but don't assume that it would be small and easy to implement.
Remember that some of the bigger issues with faster is the size of the connectors. 1000A requires really big wires.

Also are you willing to pay $10000 just for faster 0-60 and only a little range?

There are a multitude of reasons why supercaps aren't being used as batteries today

 

[dhanson865]

Xilverbolt on Reddit posted

"The key sentence IMO from the press release as to why Tesla is interested in Maxwell. "We have developed and transformed our patented, proprietary and fundamental dry electrode manufacturing technology that we have historically used to make ultracapacitors to create a breakthrough technology that can be applied to the manufacturing of batteries. "

Looks like someone stumbled on a real breakthrough for batteries and Tesla decided just to buy the entire company."

 

[RDoc]

This doesn't all make sense to me unless there's some issue with batteries degrading faster than Tesla wants. An ultracapacitor could shave off the peak of the current draw, but so what? Tesla batteries already last a long time.

Maybe they could make significantly cheaper battery packs if they didn't have to accommodate the high draws on acceleration?

 

[Tiger]

Interesting, see https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-highest-energy-density-supercapacitor

 

[Cosmacelf]

This has nothing to do with super caps, it has everything to do with Maxwell’s new cell manufacturing process they’ve brought over from manufacturing those super caps. More thoughts along these lines here: Tesla's Battery Cell Technology Acquisition: Maxwell

 

[dhanson865]

Tesla acquires super cap company Maxwell

requested threads be merged.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Tesla will acquire a plant, experienced technical and manufacturing people. Experience in both battery and capacitor technology may prove invaluable in taking Tesla forward.

Tesla gets the plant, the people and the processes...

 

[Buckminster]

From another thread:

I think there is a reasonable chance 90% of the rational for this acquisition is Maxwell's dry electrode breakthrough which Tesla must think is promising. Maxwell have been hyping a new potential "strategic partnership" on its electrode and Elon may have said we will use your tech but only if we can buy you.

That said (and apologises but I don't have time to do the math), Tesla is acquiring a company with 380 employees with a specialisation in ultracapacitor R&D. Combined with Elon's history in supercapacitor research, I'm sure Elon will spend time going through Maxwell's technology to see what potential synergies there could be with Tesla, and i think it worthwhile for people here to speculate what these could be.

The two that stand out to me are using ultracapacitors to support Powerpacks & improve grid response speed and using ultracapacitors to support regenerative breaking. Regen braking support is a very different proposition from using ultracapacitors to replace a lithium battery, which I agree seems far from feasible with current technology.

Maxwell at least sees an opportunity in regenerative braking: Maxwell Technologies Regenerative Energy Recovery Applications
"How much electrical energy can a hybrid or electric application’s rechargeable battery be expected to absorb during a braking event that lasts only a few seconds? On the flip side, rapid, deep discharges to power acceleration apply stress to batteries and shorten their life. To overcome these charge-discharge rate limitations and make rechargeable hybrid and electric application batteries last longer, they typically are oversized, adding to the volume, weight and cost of the energy storage system. That’s where the ultracapacitor’s ability to re-charge virtually instantaneously is of great benefit in regenerative energy systems."
"Every battery, irrespective of chemistry, has a finite operational life and wears out after hundreds to a few thousand charge/discharge cycles. To extend battery life and put off costly replacement, system designers build in power electronics that limit charge rate and depth of discharge. In compensating for those limitations and assuring acceptable performance, the battery must be built as oversized. Thus hybrid and electric applications must sacrifice efficiency by hauling around very large, heavy and, expensive battery systems. Ultracapacitors, on the other hand, perform reliably for one million or more charge/discharge cycles – effectively lasting the entire life of the application.
Scientists at the Argonne National Laboratory have demonstrated that an integrated system combining batteries with ultracapacitors dramatically improve braking energy recuperation efficiency and eliminate the need for battery over-sizing, reducing the weight and cost of the entire system."

Maxwell also sees potential to support battery storage projects: Maxwell Technologies Solar and Wind Intermittency Firming.

"Ultracapacitor energy storage provides multiple benefits to independent energy generators and utilities alike, for renewable generation such as solar and wind as well as traditional fuel energy generation. Maxwell Ultracapacitor products are uniquely suited to deliver excellent cost of ownership value by providing a long service life and excellent reliability. Within the context of a hybrid ultracapacitor + battery energy storage solution, ultracapacitors are utilized to perform fast response functions and extend battery lifetime.

• Frequency Response/Regulation There are short term variations in grid power generation and load that lead to frequency fluctuations on the order of seconds to minutes. These fluctuations must be tracked and balanced. Maxwell Ultracapacitors can be rapidly charged or discharged in response to a generation source frequency spike (over-generation) or dip (under-generation).
• Voltage Sag Mitigation and Power Quality. When large, fast load demands are placed on the grid, ultracapacitors can rapidly supply power to avoid voltage sag, until a generator or secondary power source comes online.
• Solar and Wind Intermittency Firming. The variable and intermittent power output from solar and wind generation causes dips and peaks in power output caused by cloud coverage over solar generation sites or fluctuations in wind speed for wind generation sites. Maxwell Ultracapacitors can firm power output and "ride through” these deviations, and also control the rate at which power ramps up and down to eliminate rapid power swings.
• Backup Power and UPS. On the grid, a reserve of power must be instantaneously ready to respond to a power outage/failure. Maxwell Ultracapacitors can supply rapid backup power as a "bridge” to maintain operations until a back-up generation source is brought on line."

 

[insaneoctane]

What capacity capacitor has Maxwell created so far?

 

[Jeff Hudson]

This is terrific news. I have always said Tesla is widely underestimated by analysts when they concentrate their estimations and predictions on Tesla's auto manufacturing operations without also considering the energy side of Tesla's business.

 

[BluestarE3]

Bull case: Owners/developers know they could sell the tech to a Japanese company like Panasonic (or Korean, Chinese company) for $1 billion or more. But they know their participation in the eventual commercialization will not be all that meaningful, being over-ridden by the huge corporation's internal research and development efforts, further large financial gains may take years or not be that large. Perhaps they feel Tesla can bring their technology to market more quickly and this will cement Tesla's lead in the EV revolution and the value of the TSLA shares that they took as payment will soar and they will continue to participate meaningfully in the commercialization of their ground-breaking discoveries all while being associated with a company whose stated goals align with their values.

After what happened with Ovonics, I can see why getting acquired by Tesla may make the most sense to Maxwell if they want to see their technologies move forward and commercialized, rather than risk having them locked up and buried by some other potential suitor. It's not just about making money, there's also the pride and satisfaction in knowing your inventions see the light of day and are making a positive impact on the world.

 

[dww12]

This doesn't all make sense to me unless there's some issue with batteries degrading faster than Tesla wants. An ultracapacitor could shave off the peak of the current draw, but so what? Tesla batteries already last a long time.

Maybe they could make significantly cheaper battery packs if they didn't have to accommodate the high draws on acceleration?

Ultracaps don’t care about the cold. No performance loss dots in the winter.

 

[PWlakewood]

Just purchased some shares of Maxwell.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Just purchased some shares of Maxwell.

I thought of doing that too, but you are effectively buying TSLA shares at a slight discount (like 4%) assuming the deal goes through. Actually, there is also a slight possibility a bidding war will erupt making that a good purchase indeed. And then a slight possibility the deal falls apart, which is why there is that 4% discount...