Tesla acquires super cap company Maxwell

[PWlakewood]

I thought of doing that too, but you are effectively buying TSLA shares at a slight discount (like 4%) assuming the deal goes through. Actually, there is also a slight possibility a bidding war will erupt making that a good purchase indeed. And then a slight possibility the deal falls apart, which is why there is that 4% discount...

Which is why I didnt buy a huge amount.

 

[J1mbo]

Wow, this is good news. Ultracaps can offer lots of benefit for automotive and grid storage even without the "breakthrough".

As for the breakthrough... EM said in previous investor calls that Tesla hear about battery breakthroughs all the time and are always interested in getting samples for evaluation. I wonder if such a sample crossed his desk from Maxwell, prompting the acquisition talks.

As for Panasonic, I think they will continue to be Tesla's battery manufacturing partner. Tesla provides the method, they provide the manufacturing and quality expertise.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Just purchased some shares of Maxwell.

Looks like their stock jumped about 3 weeks ago so I'm sure a few people figured out a potential deal was in the works.

 

[PWlakewood]

Looks like their stock jumped about 3 weeks ago so I'm sure a few people figured out a potential deal was in the works.

Yes but I wanted to make sure and it was a relative bargain so I waited until today

 

[cpa]

https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/tesla-acquires-ultracapacitor-battery-manufacturer

For a cheap price too. Will be interesting to see exactly why...

Since both companies are C corporations, there are certain tax advantages and disadvantages to these stock-for-stock purchases. We know nothing of the guts of the transaction until Tesla discloses it in their 10Q.

In a stock purchase arrangement Tesla steps into the shoes of Maxwell and receives all assets and assumes all liabilities at net book value. Since Maxwell is publicly traded, it is highly doubtful that a stock sale for cash would generate favorable Section 1202 treatment to the selling shareholders.

In an all stock deal, if Tesla structures the deal properly, any gain to the selling shareholders could be deferred until they unload Tesla's stock for cash. This way they can participate in any appreciation of Tesla's stock in the coming years.

All stock deals are cheaper for the buyer because the buyer assumes all liabilities (recorded and unrecorded like future lawsuits), and they do not purchase the assets at fair market value, only net book value (lower deductions for depreciation and amortization.)

Had Maxwell sold all their assets to Tesla, the corporation would recognize a gain upon sale followed by the shareholders recognizing a gain upon liquidation after all liabilities were paid. (Double-taxed income.) Had the Maxwell shareholders sold their stock for cash, they would have recognized a capital gain upon receipt of cash.

 

[OPRCE]

SuperCaps have very low energy density, so a meaningful bank will be bulky, therefore I think these will go into the Semi first, to smooth regen/drive currents under heavy load, thus prolonging battery life into the range where that one million mile drivetrain guarantee will not cost Tesla an arm and a leg.

 

[Buckminster]

Gali on Maxwell

 

[gilscales]

Maybe someone that knows a bit about batteries can chime in on the results achieved in this paper?

http://www.powersourcesconference.com/Power Sources 2018 Digest/docs/3-1.pdf

 

[Brando]

... And the benefits of going with a company like Tesla and their historically lightning fast commercialization schedules could pay big dividends to the sellers depending upon other guarantees or compensation they were promised in addition to the Tesla stock.

Bull case: Owners/developers know they could sell the tech to a Japanese company like Panasonic (or Korean, Chinese company) for $1 billion or more. But they know their participation in the eventual commercialization will not be all that meaningful, being over-ridden by the huge corporation's internal research and development efforts, further large financial gains may take years or not be that large. Perhaps they feel Tesla can bring their technology to market more quickly and this will cement Tesla's lead in the EV revolution and the value of the TSLA shares that they took as payment will soar and they will continue to participate meaningfully in the commercialization of their ground-breaking discoveries all while being associated with a company whose stated goals align with their values.

I recently learned that Musk, before he left the University, had a focus on super-capacitors so I would expect he has the necessary background to appropriately appraise new developments in this field.

Agreed. Especially when you look at Tesla R&D spending vs most anyone else. Tesla seems to get more per dollar than most anyone else. 2010-2017 total R&D <$4.3 Billion

 

[Cosmacelf]

Maybe someone that knows a bit about batteries can chime in on the results achieved in this paper?

http://www.powersourcesconference.com/Power Sources 2018 Digest/docs/3-1.pdf

Yes, those are great results. Still to be tested: hot and cold performance, mechanical vibration testing, etc. But I suspect Tesla did that before buying Maxwell.

 

[gilscales]

Seems that already achieving a 20% increase in energy density (at 300 wh/kg vs. approx. 250 wh/kg for Tesla/Panasonic cells) for their dry electrode with a "Clear path forward to 500 wh/kg" or double the current 2170 cell energy density, couple that with a 10% to 20% cost reduction in manufacturing PLUS double the cycle life that this is a steal of a buy and seems to good to be true

 

[bhzmark]

Is the idea that Tesla will use dry electrodes instead of wet electrodes? Can someone describe what exactly a dry electrode does better than a wet electrode? Just energy density? Ability to do bursts of charge and discharge faster? With more MTBF? Or what?

 

[Cosmacelf]

Is the idea that Tesla will use dry electrodes instead of wet electrodes? Can someone describe what exactly a dry electrode does better than a wet electrode? Just energy density? Ability to do bursts of charge and discharge faster? With more MTBF? Or what?

Read this post: Tesla's Battery Cell Technology Acquisition: Maxwell

Let me know here or there if you have further Qs.

 

[MP3Mike]

Is the idea that Tesla will use dry electrodes instead of wet electrodes? Can someone describe what exactly a dry electrode does better than a wet electrode? Just energy density? Ability to do bursts of charge and discharge faster? With more MTBF? Or what?

Maxwell claims that its electrode enables an energy density of over 300 Wh/kg in current demonstration cells and they see a path to over 500 Wh/kg. They claim that it should simplify the manufacturing process and result in a “10 to 20% cost reduction versus state-of-the-art wet electrodes” while “extending battery Life up to a factor of 2.”

So more energy dense, costs less, and battery last longer.

 

[SageBrush]

This doesn't all make sense to me unless there's some issue with batteries degrading faster than Tesla wants. An ultracapacitor could shave off the peak of the current draw, but so what? Tesla batteries already last a long time.

I often wonder why regen power is more limited than acceleration in the cold. I still don't know the answer but perhaps an ultra-cap is a solution ?

 

[SageBrush]

Never judge

The stock price peaked some time ago at $40.

 

[timk225]

Adding ultra caps would make it easier to dump more power to the motors for 1/4 mile and similar stoplight accelerations.

 

[Brando]

reminder: The chemistry/physics of batteries is not well understood - no theory that can predict accurate results.
Therefore all advances are mostly lucky guesses, and endless testing of different chemicals. Which helps explain why since 1800 we are still working trying to get better batteries.

Li-Ion batteries get started in the 1970s Exxon got the patents and pretty much stopped development and when patent ran out Sony in 1991 offered first commercial Li-Ion batteries. overview at wikipedia
Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia

With no theories we continue to do experiments. How to test a design and see which is better? Waiting 20 years is too long for most everyone. Jeff Dahn is given the most credit for figuring out ways to do rapid testing. Google for his excellent talks you can find on YouTube (probably research papers as well). Currently Tesla is funding research in Nova Scotia, Canada.
Jeff Dahn - Wikipedia
Jeff Dahn Research Group

I'd suspect JD Straubel is most directly keeping tabs on battery research around the world (he and Elon have both claimed Tesla keeps track of hundreds of battery projects - and they plead anyone with a "new & better" battery to send them a sample, as Tesla is probably the single largest Lithium Ion battery user in the world. And everyone wants better batteries.
google: SLAC Lithium batteries on Youtube and you'll find some informative talks more in the scientific area.

All to say - Batteries are still a mystery have have yet to "solve". (good enough for now and getting better)
Sending robots around the solar system, not so much. We have that nailed, not to say it is easy.

 

[gnuarm]

I often wonder why regen power is more limited than acceleration in the cold. I still don't know the answer but perhaps an ultra-cap is a solution ?

I just read an article about that the other day. It seems when charging lithium ions are intercalated into the graphite anode, meaning the lithium atoms are interposed between the carbon atoms. At cold temperatures the process of intercalation happens slower and if the charging is too fast, the lithium instead plates onto the graphite electrode ruining it.

Yes, supercaps can help with the regen issue at lower temps. But they are like batteries in that they are expensive and not small, perhaps even worse. Also, they don't discharge at a relatively constant voltage like batteries. The voltage is a direct relation to the charge and so will require yet another converter to efficiently pump energy back and forth. V = IT/C

 

[Brando]

I don't see any weight advantage with capacitors - and they seem more expensive too. So are any performance gains (faster charge/discharge rates) worth extra cost & weight? Not so sure. I trust one of the below links will work

BCAP0310 P270 T10 Maxwell Technologies | Mouser

BCAP0350 E270 T11 Maxwell Technologies | Mouser

So I certainly think the value is in the "dry cell manufacturing". So I agree with your Panasonic thoughts.

Every manufacturer should be doing buy/make decisions regularly for continuous improvements.

As W Edward Deming's would promote - working with suppliers is superior to simple lowest bid/cost behavior. Both parties can benefit from continuous improvements. Will be interesting to watch.