diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Here is a perhaps funny edge case for Tesla Vision: a truck carrying traffic lights. The visualizations show traffic lights coming out of the truck. LOL.
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Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"
- Thread starter run-the-joules
- Start date
Zhe Wiz
I’m Done Here
Someone posted this on reddit today too. I wonder if this would cause the MD maps to get updated 
(none of these are tied to Radar of course, just interesting autonomy challenges)
Which makes me wonder what happens when the car encounters this:
(none of these are tied to Radar of course, just interesting autonomy challenges)
Which makes me wonder what happens when the car encounters this:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Therein lies the problem, if the camera can tell it's a bridge what's the point of the radar?
There's basically 4 scenarios:
1) Both sensors determine there is something in its path: you have high confidence there is.
2) Both sensors determine there isn't something in its path: you have high confidence there isn't
3) radar determines there is something in its path, but camera doesn't (basically the situation you point out at end and also in phanthom braking events): if you want to play it safe, you brake or slow down
4) camera determines there is something in its path, but radar doesn't: same deal, if you want to play it safe you brake or slow down.
The contribution to phantom braking is largely between which plays a bigger role: #3 or #4? And #3 really is where radar plays its role in improving safety, but also where it can contribute to phantom braking or "noise" overall even if car decides not to act.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Can you post where you seen reports of radar shortages? There are chip shortages (which affects ADAS option packages), but nowhere did I find reports of radar shortages. Someone mentioned BMW said there was a radar shortage, but when I asked for a source for that claim, there was no response.
Here's at least one: Automotive IC Shortage Drags On
Plus, radar systems use MCU's, so any general MCU shortage will inherently limit radar as well.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
If it stops when it sees that stop sign before proceeding, that's not really a problem. The bigger problem is there are laws (frequently ignored) that if that stop sign is flipped out, traffic is supposed to stop and wait until it is flipped back in (not just treat it like a regular stop sign). I imagine that will have to be manually programmed in, as it's not necessarily a common enough scenario for regular training to figure out.Someone posted this on reddit today too. I wonder if this would cause the MD maps to get updated
(none of these are tied to Radar of course, just interesting autonomy challenges)
Which makes me wonder what happens when the car encounters this:
View attachment 669171
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Continental, the supplier for Tesla (and many other car companies) said so in their own reporting.
Continental expects chip shortage to drag on for months
The German supplier also expects a rebound in global passenger-car output of between 9 and 12 percent this year after the pandemic shut factories last year and demand slumped.
www.autonews.com
or
Chip-shortage 'crisis' halts car-company output
A shortage of computer chips is leading to car factories shutting down for days at a time.
www.bbc.com
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
There was an aside that mentioned the shortage may touch radars and cameras, but there is no claim that there is a radar unit shortage.
As for MCU shortage, that's exactly what I'm talking about, when I looked into BMW's shortage claims, what they are doing is, due to the chip shortage, they are no longer offering certain ADAS packages as a whole (where the radar unit is only one part of, but primarily that eliminates the MCU demand). This would be akin to Tesla no longer offering Autopilot at all in some cars, not the same as specifically removing only the radar unit, while still using components that have been reported to be directly affected by the chip shortage.
I actually used the specific image on purpose. The Stop sign on a bus is visible from the side even when it's not flipped out. This can be the image you see of a bus stopped in traffic on a cross street as you approach it.
A full FSD system has to understand a LOT of context for signs, not just identify their existence visually.
If stopping for a school bus isn't common enough to drive automated training, then that just tells us how little we can learn from driving around and how long the tail is. I personally probably have to stop for a school bus 50 times a year because of how my commute lines up with bus routes.
twc
Member
I just wish I could overrule the choice of high beams. Driving in back of someone with high beams is not cool, or if it doesn't turn them off while a car is passing by you on a two way highway. Not sure what can be done for the fast toggle issue. Just don't want to be that person on the highway with his high beams. Other night it flashed a cop car. It's going to get me in trouble.
And then of course Knightshade has data direct from Continental.
But where are we really going here? Why did Tesla remove radar only from the North America 3/Y but leave it on all other cars if it wasn't a radar shortage? If it was on purpose, it would be all cars, right?
Oh.... Sounds familiar, just with a Tesla style spin on what they are doing instead of being transparent like other companies.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I can't read the first article given it's behind a paywall, but the second one does not mention a radar shortage at all. The only mention was:Continental, the supplier for Tesla (and many other car companies) said so in their own reporting.
Continental expects chip shortage to drag on for months
The German supplier also expects a rebound in global passenger-car output of between 9 and 12 percent this year after the pandemic shut factories last year and demand slumped.
or
Chip-shortage 'crisis' halts car-company output
A shortage of computer chips is leading to car factories shutting down for days at a time.
"Modern cars are becoming computers on wheels, with an abundance of silicon required to control everything from the infotainment system to camera, radar and lidar". See my other comment about BMW, that the shortage is in the contollers: this results in not offering an ADAS package at all (like if Tesla doesn't offer AP, not removing the radar unit only).
Continental supplies many parts, not just radar. Most critically, they supply control units, which reports have explicitly said have been affected by the shortage. I still see nothing that says radar units are in short supply.
Continental Automotive
Control units combine a variety of functions for more safety and comfort when driving.
www.continental-automotive.com
FloridaJohn
Member
The European version of the article does not appear to be paywalled:I can't read the first article given it's behind a paywall, but the second one does not mention a radar shortage at all. The only mention was:
"Modern cars are becoming computers on wheels, with an abundance of silicon required to control everything from the infotainment system to camera, radar and lidar". See my other comment about BMW, that the shortage is in the contollers: this results in not offering an ADAS package at all (like if Tesla doesn't offer AP, not removing the radar unit only).
Continental supplies many parts, not just radar. Most critically, they supply control units, which reports have explicitly said have been affected by the shortage. I still see nothing that says radar units are in short supply.
Continental Automotive
Control units combine a variety of functions for more safety and comfort when driving.
Continental expects chip shortage to drag on for months
Continental expects a rebound in global passenger-car output of between 9 percent and 12 percent this year after the health crisis shut factories last year and demand slumped.
It does not mention radar, or any particular product, specifically.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Can't read his first link behind a paywall, but his second link mentions nothing about a radar shortage. Again keep in mind that Continental supplies automotive control units also (which Tesla is still using even in the radar less vehicles), which the articles do mention explicitly are in short supply. I have yet to see an article that says radar units are in short supply.
I'm just asking for an article that says there's a radar shortage (which I failed to find myself) but all I'm seeing is projections.
As we've discussed in the whole regulatory discussion, removing that for other models will also mean those check marks for FCW/LCW/AEB are lost for them mid-year. Tesla obviously would not want that distraction while they are doing the Plaid launch this month. And other countries may have mandatory requirements that the removal may affect (NHTSA uses a "voluntary" requirement while I believe Canada is still in the middle of drafting their requirements in line with NHTSA).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Thanks, that's exactly what I found in my searches. No evidence of a radar shortage, plenty of evidence of control chip shortages, resulting in delays for infotainment systems and things like wiper control modules (like the F-150), BMW no longer offering certain driver assistance packages in certain models.The European version of the article does not appear to be paywalled:
Continental expects chip shortage to drag on for months
Continental expects a rebound in global passenger-car output of between 9 percent and 12 percent this year after the health crisis shut factories last year and demand slumped.europe.autonews.com
It does not mention radar, or any particular product, specifically.
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So if Tesla was so forward looking to realize this would mean the check marks were lost, and that would cause distraction, and they are super sure they are going to solve this in vision in a few weeks after 3 years of work, but they also still had plenty of radars, then:
1) Why did they do this at all, instead of waiting for vision to be at parity? All for $75 per car for "the upcoming weeks"?
2) Why did they not talk to NHTSA until the day after they made this public?
3) If they are sure that this will still meet AEB requirements, that means it's been tested at least internally. Why couldn't they meet the requirements in other countries with this change, especially since shipping to other countries takes weeks. Why not "double down" here like they did for US customers? If Tesla is a safety first company, this needs to be a parity or safer system than the previous one, which they should be able to argue to any of those evil regulators.
4) Why did they scrub the blog post explaining how radar was helpful instead of updating it to say "we've learned since then"? I thought they were proud of their vision superiority.
5) Why didn't they make this change and only apply it to new orders, and deliver people that ordered with Radar the cars they ordered, instead of going back and changing a configuration on them, requiring acceptance of this change because they needed to remove advertised features. Just slap a radar on any VIN ordered before date X.
Arguing that Tesla did this for any reason besides a shortage requires simultaneously saying Tesla is super smart and super dumb at the same time. And the only reason to do that dance is to defend Tesla not being transparent about why they did this.
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Don't know you Tesla is so far ahead of everyone else they can defy the laws of physics.
I'm sure Waymo and Cruise already had this accounted for in their simulations.
Complicating this further is the fact that fairly similar-looking things can be real traffic-control devices, for example:
TLD-2312 : portable traffic signal trailer | Ver-Mac
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