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Tesla Energy/Solar City idiots

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As for the powerwalls, this is typical Tesla. Get everyone excited, take reservations, and then string everyone along while ramping. I'm sure you'll have your powerwall in a year or so.
I have no doubt we'd be able to get at least one powerwall installed somewhere at the end of 2017 or early 2018. However, we've been trying to get a powerwall since spring of 2016.

I think we're going to go with the SolarEdge Storedge solution with an LG Chem 9.8kWh battery. I can have it all here by the end of next week. I think this will serve our solar storage needs quite nicely. The DC->DC->AC (vs DC->AC->DC->AC) efficiency will be a plus as well.

If the powerwalls do ever make their way to our area then we'll look at possibly adding one as a grid backup only.
 
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I have a friend that had a signed contract for Solar City to complete a solar project for him. The county changed their wind rating requirement and then solar city declined to do the project. He had to threaten to file a failure to perform lawsuit before they would do the work for him. It took almost a year to get past the nastieness.
 
Just as a heads up in case anyone is reading this and sees the LG Chem battery mention. Apparently LG is going the Tesla route in that they are now requiring LG certified installers (which there are zero of in my area).

It's kind of frustrating having a pile of money ready to throw at a solution but no one (LG, Tesla, etc) willing to take it and give me a product.
 
Just as a heads up in case anyone is reading this and sees the LG Chem battery mention. Apparently LG is going the Tesla route in that they are now requiring LG certified installers (which there are zero of in my area).

It's kind of frustrating having a pile of money ready to throw at a solution but no one (LG, Tesla, etc) willing to take it and give me a product.
Look up Sonnen. German company that sells in the US. Maybe they work in your area.
 
Well, the deal I got was to pre-purchase 20 years of power from the solar panels for one upfront payment at 6.6c/kWh. It's still a lease, though. My monthly energy bills (grid) are 50% or less of what they were (with net metering), so that monthly savings difference divided into the single upfront cost is 4.5 years.

Also early on (two years ago or so) there was a $1000 rebate available to Tesla owners for "home charging" or something like that.
Most people are attracted to leases because they don't have to put any money down but fail to consider the serious consequences of that lease on the future sale of the home. Solar leases create a ton of headache for both buyers and sellers. These homes are starting to hit the market in greater and greater numbers and the issues are numerous and significant. Ask a real estate agent in California, many buyers won't even walk through a home with a solar lease because of the issues involved. If two next-door identical homes are for sale, the solar-lease home will always sell last, and for less. Homes with owned systems are a commodity, and unlike leases, banks will include them in appraisal values, leases have no value or even a negative value.
 
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Look up Sonnen
Sonnen wants $22k for 16kWh. I like their product. It seems very solid. However, they need to adjust their pricing to be at least a little more competitive in the US.

Also adara power. Used to be juicebox. They have installs throughout the us.
I'll give these guys a call tomorrow.

I may have a line on an LG battery as well. Fingers crossed.
 
Most people are attracted to leases because they don't have to put any money down but fail to consider the serious consequences of that lease on the future sale of the home. Solar leases create a ton of headache for both buyers and sellers. These homes are starting to hit the market in greater and greater numbers and the issues are numerous and significant. Ask a real estate agent in California, many buyers won't even walk through a home with a solar lease because of the issues involved. If two next-door identical homes are for sale, the solar-lease home will always sell last, and for less. Homes with owned systems are a commodity, and unlike leases, banks will include them in appraisal values, leases have no value or even a negative value.

What's the problem? I made one up-front payment for the power for 20 years, and that's it. While it's still technically a lease, there are no other financial obligations involved, except Solarcity coming in 20 years to remove it, or I can buy it outright at that time for a residual value.

When it comes time to sell, I can just transfer the lease to the buyers, and if I choose, pro-rate the single upfront payment for the remaining term of the lease. The solar panels generate about 50% of the house's needs, cutting the grid bills in half. By the time I sell the house, I already would have broken-even, so it's just gravy at that point. If the panels or system gets damaged or breaks, Solarcity is responsible to come out and fix it.

Maybe it's different for leases what have a continual monthly payment for power (at nearly twice the kWh price I paid), but this system is a win-win, and I can't see it diminishing the value of my property at all.
 
The reality of these solar products changes as price points change.

The casual consumer could have researched solar leases 3 years ago and rightly assessed the product as a potential negative for home resale, that's simply not the case now. Solar is so cheap now that the economics have flipped and consumers(now prosumers) are savings tons of cash. A lease with payments far below grid cost has obvious benefit to someone shopping to buy an existing home, whereas a lease at grid parity or above is a negative to anyone other than a solar proponent.

As with everything these day, you're all somewhat "correct". We're in a "dead zone" right now where Tesla(the market leader) has no viable PPA product in the market to compare to, I expect that to change very soon and we can do the math from there.
 
What's the problem? I made one up-front payment for the power for 20 years, and that's it. While it's still technically a lease, there are no other financial obligations involved, except Solarcity coming in 20 years to remove it, or I can buy it outright at that time for a residual value.

When it comes time to sell, I can just transfer the lease to the buyers, and if I choose, pro-rate the single upfront payment for the remaining term of the lease. The solar panels generate about 50% of the house's needs, cutting the grid bills in half. By the time I sell the house, I already would have broken-even, so it's just gravy at that point. If the panels or system gets damaged or breaks, Solarcity is responsible to come out and fix it.

Maybe it's different for leases what have a continual monthly payment for power (at nearly twice the kWh price I paid), but this system is a win-win, and I can't see it diminishing the value of my property at all.

That's precisely it. The buyers having to assume the lease. It's a complication within the already complex transaction of buying a home. Look how much you had to explain to sell your lease. Now try to do that through the real estate agents (some of whom aren't exactly the brightest crowns in the box). I agree with eye.surgeon. Having just bought a house in Denver if the house would have had a solar lease, I would have told our real estate agent no. If the owner owned the panels (bought with cash, or had a loan on them that I wouldn't have to assume), then I would have pushed to buy that house.
 
That's precisely it. The buyers having to assume the lease. It's a complication within the already complex transaction of buying a home. Look how much you had to explain to sell your lease. N

"There are solar panels that generate xx kWh per month. You get the free benefit of all power generated from them to offset grid power. You pay nothing now, or ever. Solarcity will remove them in y years."

Seems pretty simple to me.
 
"There are solar panels that generate xx kWh per month. You get the free benefit of all power generated from them to offset grid power. You pay nothing now, or ever. Solarcity will remove them in y years."

Seems pretty simple to me.

In fact so simplistic, that it doesn't tell the truth. It's not a free benefit. You have make a lease payment to Solar City each month. A lease you have to assume responsibility for decades. If you over use the system generation, you then have to make two payments. One to Solar City and one to the power company. You as a new home buyer don't know what your energy usage in a new house would be. If the system is undersized for your needs, but wasn't for the previous owner, you're screwed.

Speaking of power companies what happens if/when the power company changes it's net metering policy retroactively? You're screwed, and now have to pay a lease that doesn't work out financially. And it does happen. It's happened in Arizona and Nevada. Why do you think Solar City needed to be bailed out? Because people began to renege on their lease payments because Arizona and Nevada changed the rules, and Solar City was on a hook for part of those lease agreements when they sold them as debt backed securities.

The fact of the matter is anyone who is reasonably financially competent know these solar leases are horrible products, and they're going to affect the reputation of solar installers for quite some time.
 
In fact so simplistic, that it doesn't tell the truth. It's not a free benefit. You have make a lease payment to Solar City each month. A lease you have to assume responsibility for decades. If you over use the system generation, you then have to make two payments. One to Solar City and one to the power company. You as a new home buyer don't know what your energy usage in a new house would be. If the system is undersized for your needs, but wasn't for the previous owner, you're screwed.

Speaking of power companies what happens if/when the power company changes it's net metering policy retroactively? You're screwed, and now have to pay a lease that doesn't work out financially. And it does happen. It's happened in Arizona and Nevada. Why do you think Solar City needed to be bailed out? Because people began to renege on their lease payments because Arizona and Nevada changed the rules, and Solar City was on a hook for part of those lease agreements when they sold them as debt backed securities.

Holy crap! Are you guys NOT LISTENING to me? How many times do I have to repeat myself? Please read this carefully: I MADE ONE SINGLE UPFRONT PAYMENT to Solarcity FOR 20 YEARS OF POWER GENERATED FROM THE SOLAR PANELS at 6.6c/kWh. There are **ZERO** monthly lease payments. None, nadda, zero, zip. Got it yet?

If the power company changes the net metering policy, that affects everyone with solar panels regardless of financing method. You own your system? You're just as screwed as I am --- actually a lot more because I only have a few thousand invested my solar panels instead of 10s of thousands.
 
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Whoa! I had no idea. What, do they air freight it and send installers from Germany?
$22K ($22.8 actually) for 16kWh was just the hardware purchase price. You then have to pay shipping via freight (which isn't much in comparison) and then have someone licensed/certified by Sonnen install it. I was quoted $1500 for installation. So you're basically looking at ~25K for 16kWh installed. LG dropped their prices to be more competitive about a month ago it seems. Sonnen needs to do the same.

The good news is that I've found a source for the LG batteries. Apparently LG is now only supplying these to resellers on an as needed basis (no shelf stock basically) to be installed as part of LG approved systems. Basically, the reseller designs a system and LG approves it before sending the battery. The good news for me is that a few DIY shops were stocking the batteries before this change. A couple still have stock left and have no problem selling them.
 
Holy crap! Are you guys NOT LISTENING to me? How many times do I have to repeat myself? Please read this carefully: I MADE ONE SINGLE UPFRONT PAYMENT to Solarcity FOR 20 YEARS OF POWER GENERATED FROM THE SOLAR PANELS at 6.6c/kWh. There are **ZERO** monthly lease payments. None, nadda, zero, zip. Got it yet?

I think people are confused because prepaying a 20 year lease is highly unusual outside of the highly, shall we say creative, world of solar financing. I'm interested why it was structured that way. Without knowing the details, prepaying for anything for 20 years seems risky. What happens if you sell your house next year? You pre-paid for 19 years of power you will never use?

If the power company changes the net metering policy, that affects everyone with solar panels regardless of financing method. You own your system? You're just as screwed as I am --- actually a lot more because I only have a few thousand invested my solar panels instead of 10s of thousands.
Not really. At least here in California you sign long term contracts with the Utilities, in my case PG&E, with fixed net metering prices. Mine is fixed for 20 years.
 
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I think people are confused because prepaying a 20 year lease is highly unusual outside of the highly, shall we say creative, world of solar financing. I'm interested why it was structured that way. Without knowing the details, prepaying for anything for 20 years seems risky. What happens if you sell your house next year? You pre-paid for 19 years of power you will never use?

The choices SolarCity offered me were very clear. They were all 20 year leases. This was the initial proposal. I opted for the "Full Pre-Pay Plan" option:

upload_2017-6-9_12-28-25.png




So if I was in for 20 years anyway I cut it, would I rather pay 13.5c/kWh, 11.0c/kWh, or 6.6c/kWh? Just look at the ROI. It's a no-brainer.

The first two options appeal to most people who don't want to make any upfront payment, which is why they are so popular. But they would be paying more than twice as much for the energy for the privilege. OTOH, if one is able to make the full pre-pay upfront payment, which is still 25% of the total cost of the system if I were to do it myself, I can get power for 6.6c/kWh for 20 years. Seemed to make the most sense to me. Also, there were no other monthly payments or obligations. None, zero, nada. I doubt grid power is going to go less than 6.6c/kWh in the NYC area any time soon. Current grid power here is 16.6c/kWh. I also know that I am going to be in this house for at least five years (that was three years ago), and with a 4.5 year break-even point, I was pretty safe on that bet as well.

This was the standard proposal all Solarcity customers were getting at the time. Several friends and family (even in other states) got the same three lease offers, while only one went ahead with the install on a system about 4 times as large as mine.

Once they started the site-survey here, my system was actually a little smaller than the quote above, this is what I ended up committing to:

upload_2017-6-9_12-28-34.png


So that's $4,139 TOTAL out of pocket expenses. That's it! No monthly energy bills or lease payments.

But it gets even better. At the time (2014), Tesla+Solarcity was offering a $1000 promotion for existing Tesla owners..

Tesla Partnership Date: Jan 7, 2014
New incentive from SolarCity for Tesla customers: “Solar Fuel”
SolarCity offers Tesla customers a $1,000 payment when they install a home solar system. Tesla customers will receive a rebate check in the mail from SolarCity and can use the rebate towards home charging.

I also got a $250 referral check for the system I mentioned earlier. If I apply both of those to my Solarcity payment, that brings the total cost of my system down to $2,889! The system is guaranteed to generate 62,892 kWh of energy over 20 years, so that makes my per kWh cost just 4.6c/kWh. (If for some reason the system generates less than that level of power, I get a 6.58c/kWh refund from Solarcity.) So far after two years, it's generated 520 kWh above their estimates, which I get to keep for free.

In terms of selling my house, I'm more than halfway through my break-even point (4.5 years). When it comes time to sell, I can pro-rate the cost of the solar system to the buyers for the time left on the lease, for example, let's just say it's 10 years, I could charge them ~$2000 for the second half of the lease. They would have a similar 4 to 5 year break-even point, so it makes sense for them to buyout the lease. Or I could just roll that $2k into the price of the house and say 10 years or solar power are included for free. Since I already pre-paid Solarcity the entire amount, if the buyers don't want cheap solar power for 10 years, I can have SC come and remove the panels early. That doesn't make sense, that's just throwing money out the window. At the end of the 20 year lease, I (or any new owners) have the option to buy out the system at a highly discounted residual value (since SC doesn't have to pay a crew to come and remove the system). And in 20 years, what's the value of the existing equipment once removed? Probably zero or less than zero if there is a cost to dispose. So even after 20 years, the panels will continue to generate power at a very very low cost.

Not really. At least here in California you sign long term contracts with the Utilities, in my case PG&E, with fixed net metering prices. Mine is fixed for 20 years.

That's totally not the case here, I have no contract with the local power company. So I do have a risk of the power company or state changing net metering rules, but highly unlikely, as Connecticut is very solar-friendly and there as community solar initiatives across the state like this: Home - Solarize Connecticut

But your situation in CA clearly addresses @timpierc's concern above:

Speaking of power companies what happens if/when the power company changes it's net metering policy retroactively? You're screwed, and now have to pay a lease that doesn't work out financially..
 
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Very interesting. Sounds like a good deal actually when I look at the details. The only problem I see is if you sell your house before the ROI is realized, but your outlay is fairly small and probably worth the risk. I also see some risk in putting off future buyers since many shoppers simply skip over listings that have a solar lease without even bothering to learn the details.
 
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... What happens if you sell your house next year? You pre-paid for 19 years of power you will never use?...

You could make the same argument against buying solar panels: What if you sell your house next year? You'd have installed solar panels you'll never use. Or adding an additional room to the house: You'd have paid for a room you'll never use.

It should actually be pretty obvious: Any useful improvement to a house increases its value. In this case he'd be selling a house that gets free electricity for the next 19 years. That's worth a bit. The risk is that if Solar City goes bankrupt, they might not come back in 20 years to take the solar panels away and you'd be stuck with getting free electricity indefinitely. :rolleyes: