Curious if this is a large or long duration rebate how much used market for these will be impacted
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Tesla EV Tax Credits coming back?
- Thread starter hnguy054
- Start date
Too many unknowns at this point in time tbh, but assuming the rebate/credit is only applicable to new cars, I'm assuming that will not be good for the used market for EVs in the short-term till the credits/rebate run out. If it is a $7500 credit/rebate, then that is almost certainly a $7500+ hit on used EV prices if they don't qualify for the credit/rebate.
Personally, I buy cars for a minimum of 8+ years so I am less worried about resale value on a shorter time frame. I would worry that a combination of potential rebates and a lot more competition in the EV market + updates in tech will start dropping the MSRP of new EVs over the next few years which will obviously devalue the used car prices too. I think we are still in the early-adopter phase of the EV market and I don't think anyone should necessarily count on recovering a large fraction of the money they spend on their Tesla at this point in time when they sell it later.
OCJeff
Active Member
I could see maybe $2500 being point of sale and then the remainder $7k or $7.5k being a tax credit.
A point of sale rebate will do nothing for the consumer and just increase prices by 80% of the credit amount (thus just lining the dealerships pockets with cash and not helping the buyer).
A point of sale rebate will do nothing for the consumer and just increase prices by 80% of the credit amount (thus just lining the dealerships pockets with cash and not helping the buyer).
This sounds about right if Democrats compromise combining the Green Act ($7,000 tax credit) and The American Jobs Plan ($10,000 point-of-sale rebate). I don't know why some people were thinking these would ever stack to $17,000 in the $2T Infrastructure Plan.
However, it does look like the Republican $565B infra plan actually wants EV owners to subsidize some of the bill's costs, which would be net negative to future EV owners. I'm just going to throw this out there, but if the two parties actually come to terms on a bill this year, I can foresee it being half or less. Maybe a $3,500 tax credit and a $1,250 point-of-sale. But really, who knows.
twc
Member
HR 848 (GREEN Act of 2021) Text - H.R.848 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): GREEN Act of 2021
Those who can afford a tesla will not get the tax credit. It is for people that make less than $30k or families or household that make less than $60k. You will lose $250 for every $1k over these earnings. This also an incentive, which only take affect after Dec. 31st, 2021, you would have to wait until then to buy your BEV. Also, if said manufacture has sold more than 600K BEVs by Dec. 31st, 2021 they will not qualify for the credit. Last time I looked Tesla has sold over 800K BEVs last year, which is by far more then this bill will cover. Looking at this bill more, the sale price for the car must be less than $25,000. So, if you are waiting for this credit, it is not going to happen for Tesla. Just put your order in or wait another year for those new batteries. Though the price might go up too.
Those who can afford a tesla will not get the tax credit. It is for people that make less than $30k or families or household that make less than $60k. You will lose $250 for every $1k over these earnings. This also an incentive, which only take affect after Dec. 31st, 2021, you would have to wait until then to buy your BEV. Also, if said manufacture has sold more than 600K BEVs by Dec. 31st, 2021 they will not qualify for the credit. Last time I looked Tesla has sold over 800K BEVs last year, which is by far more then this bill will cover. Looking at this bill more, the sale price for the car must be less than $25,000. So, if you are waiting for this credit, it is not going to happen for Tesla. Just put your order in or wait another year for those new batteries. Though the price might go up too.
OCJeff
Active Member
You've got to read the details. That was in reference to USED EV vehicles. Not new. Plus as was mentioned, this isn't Biden's bill. Neither is the S.395/HR.1271 bill. Both separate initiatives from what Biden has on the table.
Not sure any of it will pass though.
twc
Member
Its actually both; new and used. I totally agree with you. I feel Biden's bill will not be Biden's bill by the time it passes, nor will it have anything in there for electric vehicles. Haven't read the S.395/H.R 1271 Bill. I will have myself a look, Thank you.
I'm really waiting to take delivery locally, a store is in the works for Memphis, TN. If there is an incentive before they start deliveries in Memphis, great, if not, we're still ready to buy. We just don't want to drive to Nashville again only to find a car that has significant paint issues and none of the doors or hatch lined up. That was an early VIN car, but still unacceptable.
Slight positive news. Republicans might go higher than $568 Billion.
“$568 billion. That’s the size of the GOP’s original counteroffer to Biden. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) suggested Monday that Republicans could accept a bill that costs somewhere between $800 billion and $900 billion.”
“$568 billion. That’s the size of the GOP’s original counteroffer to Biden. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) suggested Monday that Republicans could accept a bill that costs somewhere between $800 billion and $900 billion.”
suprax
Member
I also read this, however the GOP so far seems completely unwilling to include any sort of electric infrastructure or incentives into an "infrastructure bill". In fact they are going the opposite direction, discussing how EV owners can pay a mileage fee/tax which makes up for the highway usage tax that is typically paid with purchasing gas. Instead of agreeing to an increase in the corporate tax %.
It feels like Biden and the GOP may eventually agree to a pared down "core" infrastructure plan for just roads, bridges, broadband, etc, that they'll pass by late Summer in order to celebrate "bipartisanship". And then perhaps a couple months later, Biden will be able to push through a smaller bill for some of the other stuff which had to get cut such as the electric vehicle components, etc?
It feels like Biden and the GOP may eventually agree to a pared down "core" infrastructure plan for just roads, bridges, broadband, etc, that they'll pass by late Summer in order to celebrate "bipartisanship". And then perhaps a couple months later, Biden will be able to push through a smaller bill for some of the other stuff which had to get cut such as the electric vehicle components, etc?
Yeah, unfortunately anything EV related has become a casualty of the ridiculous partisan politics that now plagues the US. I was hopeful that the Republicans would be supportive of it, if for no other reason, but to support traditional US car manufacturers that they claim to be great supporters of. The writing is on the wall that EVs are the way of the future. Instead of being supportive of zero emission transportation when it is now so attainable and brings along so many benefits, they seem to be doubling down against EVs and in fact are trying everything they can do to hurt EV adoption to "stick it" to the "libs" buying EVs. Case in point being Texas' attempt to raise the EV annual fee to $400 :-/ . It's one thing to argue against stimulus/credits to incentivize adoption of a tech from a fiscal-policy/free-market standpoint. But it takes a special kind of you-know-what to actually go out of your way to actively sabotage something that would bring so much benefit to society and the earth with wide-scale adoption.
I suspect that things will play out as you described above. A bipartisan infrastructure plan with a much narrower scope. And probably a democrat-only follow-up that is passed through reconciliation which will include a bunch of the things talked about in their bills regarding supporting EVs and EV infrastructure in the country.
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OCJeff
Active Member
FYI... There are even 2 bills proposed by a republican Senator (Kansas I believe) to remove all EV tax credits since he feels those he represents shouldn't be paying for fancy Teslas. 
Then a second to prevent government purchases from taking advantage of tax credits.
Then a second to prevent government purchases from taking advantage of tax credits.
whisperingshad
Active Member
California already has a similar fee starting in 2020 including plug ins. Honestly i have agree that tax credit should be limited in either vehicle price or household income.(based off state not fed). Untill that happens, take advantage of the broken system
On the 2nd part, I 100% agree
On the 2nd part, I 100% agree
Personally, I'm not opposed to a fee to make up for the road-use tax. But right now, a lot of states are treating it as a cash-grab opportunity where they are setting the default flat-fee to be much higher than what an average driver in the state would be paying in road-use tax at the gas-pump. In NC, it is $130 I believe, which is already a lot higher than what I pay annually at the pump with my ICE cars. And just recently, several Republican state senators tried to pass a bill that would increase it to over $200... all under language talking about EV owners "paying their fair share", which is insulting given how completely skewed and biased all of this is.California already has a similar fee starting in 2020 including plug ins. Honestly i have agree that tax credit should be limited in either vehicle price or household income.(based off state not fed). Untill that happens, take advantage of the broken system
On the 2nd part, I 100% agree
I'd be much happier if all states just set it up to be based on your mileage during annual inspection and at a rate commensurate with what ICE vehicles are paying. I'd also be happy if they could factor household income into it. But that's just wishful thinking because this presents a new opportunity to "normalize" a higher tax on the populace, so a lot of states will jump on this, especially if they are anti-EVs in general.
I disagree strongly on limiting tax credits by income.California already has a similar fee starting in 2020 including plug ins. Honestly i have agree that tax credit should be limited in either vehicle price or household income.(based off state not fed). Untill that happens, take advantage of the broken system
On the 2nd part, I 100% agree
The natural initial market for new technology is the premium market. If you're going to interfere in the market to encourage growth of a new technology, the best way is to just adjust the price and let it go to work.
The weakest part of the tax credits is that they are tax credits. A point-of-sale rebate is far superior. It's immediate, simple and risk-free for the buyer.
Then simply adjust the rebate down over time as the technology develops until you get to your point of equilibrium.
whisperingshad
Active Member
POS is the best for all, I agree. Just limit the price range of the cars that qualify, not the amount sold
OCJeff
Active Member
I also agree.
I too am not opposed to a "use tax" of sorts for road usage to offset the lack of state/fed revenue from the Gas Tax. At the same time that should not be based on the cost of the vehicle (that is already taxed with our registration fees here in CA, usually well over $500/yr for a new vehicle > $40K). Then to add to that a flat fee regardless as to miles driven is just an EV car tax at that point. Nothing to do with usage. With that approach they should just cancel all state level EV incentives and take those funds and put them towards the state gas tax gap.
If the "annual EV Fee" was a federal thing then they should take from the federal EV incentives. Why incentive and then have additional tax for the same actions?
I too am not opposed to a "use tax" of sorts for road usage to offset the lack of state/fed revenue from the Gas Tax. At the same time that should not be based on the cost of the vehicle (that is already taxed with our registration fees here in CA, usually well over $500/yr for a new vehicle > $40K). Then to add to that a flat fee regardless as to miles driven is just an EV car tax at that point. Nothing to do with usage. With that approach they should just cancel all state level EV incentives and take those funds and put them towards the state gas tax gap.
If the "annual EV Fee" was a federal thing then they should take from the federal EV incentives. Why incentive and then have additional tax for the same actions?
A few months ago I was on the fence about whether to pull the trigger on a SR+ Model 3 or SR Model Y, or wait for a tax credit. How exciting would be to get a Model 3 for $29,990?? Since that time Tesla has raised the price on the Model 3 by $3,000. Glad I pulled the trigger on the Model Y SR.
Let's remember EV sales is less than 1% of overall car sales in US in 2020. The whole idea of incentive is to push for adoption of more energy efficient vehicles, Regardless of whether you make $400k or $35k, it is still one less gas-powered vehicle on the road. I personally don't think you should tie economic status to a green energy push, if anything, incentivize companies to make more affordable EV to start with (think the opposite of Lucid, Fisker, early days Tesla)
Should a working family that makes $35k should get a Ford Mustang EV? How about a $30k EV and with rebate incentive, $22K walking out of the door? Let the dealership deal with tax refunds, not consumers.
Road tax right not is counter intuitive, as many have pointed out, to the whole push on EV adoption.
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