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Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread

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On the question of battery capacity, here is my gut feel: Panasonic is ramping much faster than anyone, including musk thought.

Think about it. At the time that TM came along to save them, the bottom had dropped out of the laptop market and they had zero reason to worry about capacity, efficiency, density etc. for many years. TM has been buying up Panasonics capacity and asking for more. Panasonic being conservative, wouldn't commit to crazy hockey stick capacity, so TM strong-armed Panasonic into partnering with them on the GF, they said yes having little choice.

So TM breaks ground on the Sparks factory, and Panasonic quietly says to it's own people: Maximize output. Those projects you wanted a few million USD on that we couldn't afford before, now we can-- go get it done. Capacity goes up, energy density goes up, prices come down. Panasonic threatens TM: you have to take all we produce, so TM starts Tesla Energy to soak up any and all extra production, further emboldening Panasonic to maximize output.

Panasonic batteries stack up in sparks. Elon realizes that with or without the GF output they can actually ramp the M3 and publicly makes it a goal.

I too sense a lack of urgency on the GF from Elon. I think it is more a necessary in 2019 sort of thing, and they are prioritizing it accordingly. The cheapest assets in play are Panasonic's slack capacity.

If it IS an adjustment of priorities like that, it is the right thing to do for everyone involved but not something they would necessarily want to admit publicly without it sounding like they were walking back production commitments.

Similarly Panasonic was probably never totally honest with TM. If they had loads of slack capacity they wouldn't want to admit that to TM or put themselves in a weaker bargaining position. Even *panasonic* may not have known their capacity for internal face-saving reasons.

So the GF may have been an unintentional stone-soup incident where Panasonic suddenly discovers it can in fact meet a much higher production at 30% reduced cost.

/shrug fiction maybe.
 
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On the question of battery capacity, here is my gut feel: Panasonic is ramping much faster than anyone, including musk thought.

Think about it. At the time that TM came along to save them, the bottom had dropped out of the laptop market and they had zero reason to worry about capacity, efficiency, density etc. for many years. TM has been buying up Panasonics capacity and asking for more. Panasonic being conservative, wouldn't commit to crazy hockey stick capacity, so TM strong-armed Panasonic into partnering with them on the GF, they said yes having little choice.

So TM breaks ground on the Sparks factory, and Panasonic quietly says to it's own people: Maximize output. Those projects you wanted a few million USD on that we couldn't afford before, now we can-- go get it done. Capacity goes up, energy density goes up, prices come down. Panasonic threatens TM: you have to take all we produce, so TM starts Tesla Energy to soak up any and all extra production, further emboldening Panasonic to maximize output.

Panasonic batteries stack up in sparks. Elon realizes that with or without the GF output they can actually ramp the M3 and publicly makes it a goal.

I too sense a lack of urgency on the GF from Elon. I think it is more a necessary in 2019 sort of thing, and they are prioritizing it accordingly. The cheapest assets in play are Panasonic's slack capacity.

If it IS an adjustment of priorities like that, it is the right thing to do for everyone involved but not something they would necessarily want to admit publicly without it sounding like they were walking back production commitments.

Similarly Panasonic was probably never totally honest with TM. If they had loads of slack capacity they wouldn't want to admit that to TM or put themselves in a weaker bargaining position. Even *panasonic* may not have known their capacity for internal face-saving reasons.

So the GF may have been an unintentional stone-soup incident where Panasonic suddenly discovers it can in fact meet a much higher production at 30% reduced cost.

/shrug fiction maybe.

I have no basis to refute your scenario. All along it has seemed to me that Panasonic has been the reluctant partner. After Elon locked up Panasonic's Osaka production, even requiring them to reopen closed factories to meet the Tesla demand, Panasonic seemed reluctant to invest in Gigafactory1. This may have been a result of the licking they took on consumer electronics, from which they had just extricated themselves. Then we have the change in Gigafactory1 ramp, which I had assumed was more Panasonic's choice (incremental ramp of battery production) than Tesla's.

Elon and Kazuhiro Tsuga (CEO of Panasonic) have a close relationship (environmental and business interests) as do the battery units of both companies. I don't think there are any secrets. The relationship has always seemed to be mutually beneficial. Do we have any evidence to the contrary?
 
So the GF may have been an unintentional stone-soup incident where Panasonic suddenly discovers it can in fact meet a much higher production at 30% reduced cost.

The negative implication being that Tesla no longer has a competitive advantage on price for battery cells wrt its competitors, should it turn out that a gigafactory isn't necessary to drive down prices with the targeted 30%.
 
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Many battery companies have always been capable of meeting automobile demand. No one would take the credit risk on little Tesla for a huge battery order. Tesla perhaps even faced the possibility of rising battery prices with surging demand.

Not a single cell has been produced in the gigafactory. It's a construct, a new paradigm, that got many companies busy thinking about making and using batteries. If Panasonic has now decided it wants to meet demand from Japan for a few years, it doesn't matter. Tesla needs adequate battery quantities at a competitive price.

Tesla is investing in Panasonic every bit as much as Panasonic is investing in Tesla. Tesla is bring capital into battery making which allowed Panasonic to justifying scaling their production.
 
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The negative implication being that Tesla no longer has a competitive advantage on price for battery cells wrt its competitors, should it turn out that a gigafactory isn't necessary to drive down prices with the targeted 30%.

It is totally positive. TM never really wanted to spend a bunch on a battery factory; they would have preferred to buy excellent batteries at low cost. If Panasonic has provided a "shadow" GF ahead of the actual GF opening, all the better. The real GF will still open and provide even more capacity to grow.

As for competition, maybe no one else is as good as Panasonic. Also, the more the merrier, EV's compete with the total car market, not just other EV's.
 
But I don't think Tesla/Panasonic is just going to build bigger cylinders in Nevada. I expect major simplification in EV pack production. I think they re-configured the building when they finalized the new processes.

As I have said before, just making larger cylinder cells in Nevada doesn't seem to be enough innovation.
 

Which one is it if this article is true...

Tesla Motors is approaching LG Chem, Samsung SDI and SK Innovation as part of its strategy to diversify its battery-sourcing channels beyond Japan's Panasonic.

Tesla approaches LG, Samsung for Model 3 batteries

Strategies:

A) A giant battery plant for $5 bn and 6500 local employees - and "unique vertical integration benefits" (cutting costs by 30-40% according to Tesla)?

B) Buy batteries (or at least cells) on the open market from Asian suppliers - as the rest of the car industry does (most of them have signed with LG Chem already in 2012-2015) ?


How will Tesla get better pricing than its competitors in case of B) - and why build a giant Gigafactory in the first place if Tesla buys (at least a significant portion of) their cells from Asian suppliers?
 
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GF has two functions 1. more batteries and 2. cheaper batteries.

there is another concept of a "ramping" that also seems to escape you. Lets say they need 25% of GF capacity in year 1, 45% in year 2, 70% in year 3 and 100% in year 4. Panasonic can supply 100% of year 1 needs, 66% of year 2 supply, 43% of year 3 and 30% of year 4.

because this seems to be advanced math that means that the GF itself needs to supply 0% of year 1, 33% of year 2, 57% in year 3 and 70% in year 4..

We will see how much of the GF gets built in case Tesla looks for additional battery suppliers (see links above). Maybe Panasonic is not that interested in investing more - at least not for now?

Oh, I get the concept of ramping. But it doesn't fit the new "2018 ramp strategy for 500k cars" timeline - in fact it goes counter.

Tesla would need to accelerate building the GF - so far Tesla and Panasonic only spent 10% of the projected $5bn on the project.

They would have to spend much more/faster by 2018 - instead of 2020.

Instead they stopped building additional sections back in spring 2015, they even removed sections under construction - many photos prove that (see section 5 in the pictures):

5760541-14558084580528393_origin.jpg


The differences from Feb 2015 to May 2015 (steel frames removed) are obvious.

Why didn't they (at the very least) restart the day they got all these Model3 reservations?

PS: And once again: If Tesla buys cells on the open market by 2017/2018 to have enough supply for the Model3 where are the promised "30-40% cost advantages" over the competition?
 
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That article is content light. All it really says is that Tesla visited these companies. There was nothing said about buying batteries like everyone else. We don't know it has anything to do with Model 3. If it even is Model 3, we don't know that it is for Model 3 production wrt Gigafactory 1. It might be a joint effort for Gigafactory 2 or 3 somewhere else in the world. That article is so devoid of content that it is nearly useless for establishing anything.

As for removing the extra frames, Tesla reconfigured the first phase and added a floor to the first phase. This is already well known. It altered the construction plans for the 2nd phase since the 1st phase is now much bigger.

On a side note, you seem to be having a hard time modeling a project through time. Have you never actually built anything? Managed any kind of project? I've already answered you here:

Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread

It's one thing to lie to others, but at least don't lie to yourself or be the ultimate fool. At this point, you are no better than Avenger tilting at the Fukuta motor supply windmill.
 
On a side note, you seem to be having a hard time modeling a project through time.

We will see when these 500k cars and batteries actually ship.

The main issue with Tesla's "impossible" 2018 goals: Employees aren't dumb.

They'll see Musk crying wolf again and again and begin to ignore those impossible deadlines / tasks (more churn, more people getting fired or leaving - which results in more delays).
 
We will see when these 500k cars and batteries actually ship.

The main issue with Tesla's "impossible" 2018 goals: Employees aren't dumb.

They'll see Musk crying wolf again and again and begin to ignore those impossible deadlines / tasks (more churn, more people getting fired or leaving - which results in more delays).

AFAIR they publicly stated a while ago that they figured a way to produce more cells using less floor space which would perfectly explain what happened on the ground. They simply didn't need the space they planned for due to equipment/design improvements they came up with after the initial building plan was done.
 
We will see how much of the GF gets built in case Tesla looks for additional battery suppliers (see links above). Maybe Panasonic is not that interested in investing more - at least not for now?

Oh, I get the concept of ramping. But it doesn't fit the new "2018 ramp strategy for 500k cars" timeline - in fact it goes counter.

Tesla would need to accelerate building the GF - so far Tesla and Panasonic only spent 10% of the projected $5bn on the project.

They would have to spend much more/faster by 2018 - instead of 2020.

Instead they stopped building additional sections back in spring 2015, they even removed sections under construction - many photos prove that (see section 5 in the pictures):

5760541-14558084580528393_origin.jpg


The differences from Feb 2015 to May 2015 (steel frames removed) are obvious.

Why didn't they (at the very least) restart the day they got all these Model3 reservations?

PS: And once again: If Tesla buys cells on the open market by 2017/2018 to have enough supply for the Model3 where are the promised "30-40% cost advantages" over the competition?

Tesla have been talking with other suppliers for years.
relevant: Samsung SDI to supply more batteries to Tesla
 
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I heard of the magic floor a long time ago.

That doesn't change the total floor space (Tesla was rightfully quoting that number for a long time, not the building size - so far they are at just 14% of the total, that's their number, not mine).

Also, the total investment numbers submitted to Nevada (Panasonic and Tesla combined) clearly say how little they invested so far.

$500 million PTD investment simply doesn't build the largest battery factory in the world - not on one floor, not on two floors and not on three.

There's also no news on sub-suppliers investing as of Q2 2016 (these names were once promised for 2014 and then 2015).

Tesla and Panasonic should add new structures in parallel 24/7 in Nevada to make the 2018 output numbers. So far I see no activity.

I doubt all of the involved parties will invest more than another $500 million in the existing building structure (machinery etc.), probably much less.

Even assuming a very optimistic $1bn PTD until 2018 doesn't build the largest battery plant in the world.
 
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I heard of the magic floor a long time ago.

That doesn't change the total floor space (Tesla was rightfully quoting that number for a long time, not the building size).

In your world, adding floor space doesn't add floor space? Nothing magical. Did you not bother to listen to the Storey County exec?

$500 million PTD investment simply doesn't build the largest battery factory in the world - not on one floor, not on two floors and not on three.

Maybe because it isn't done?


Tesla and Panasonic should add new structures in parallel 24/7 in Nevada to make the 2018 output numbers. So far I see no activity.

They don't need to start on phase 2 until later this year. Somehow you keep needing them to spent more money and faster than they do... hmm, I guess that short thesis is pulling you like gravity towards that.

I doubt they will invest more than another $500 million in the existing building structure (machinery etc.), probably much less.

Even assuming a very optimistic $1bn PTD until 2018 doesn't build the largest battery plant in the world by 2020.

Based on your expert hunches? Right? Do you have anything more than that? The investment schedule for the pilot phase is for around $900 million - $1 billion PTD this year. Tesla only needs to add another $50-100 million. Panasonic adds another $350-400 million. As I mentioned before, you can now see Panasonic's investment start to ramp up.

Again, when does the last phase need to start in order to hit production in 2020 in your mind? I say mid 2019. When does the 2nd to last phase need to start in order to hit production in 2020? I say late 2018.

By the way, just to make the largest advanced lithium ion battery plant in the world, they might only need one phase if the pilot plant is bigger than Suminoe. It'll be close. Definitely when the first line of the 2nd phase is up, then the Gigafactory is already the biggest, even without a fully operational 2nd phase.
 
. < deleted quoted text in order not to bother those who blocked you with it >.

Wel all know you doubt all that. You keep repeating the same again and again and again and again.. There is noone here who has not at least twice seen these same points you keep bringing up. And it is virtually all speculation. You add nothing new to this discussion doing that.

It is fine for you to have all these doubts. Don't buy the share, go short (you probably are already). Also fine if you have something new to bring it up for discussion. But stick to one time, please stop repeating the same things over and over.

It is also perfectly fine of course that the current shareholders do not share your level of doubts( SP is proof). Neither do the people in charge in Nevada, they are happy with Tesla GigaFactory progress. Also Tesla mangement keep repeating that GigaFactory-1 is ahead of schedule, who are you to think you know better.

You might now move to repeat all your 'proof' that Tesla managment is always lying, As you also do in other threads, and again you will not have any proven fact. So please save us your libel this time. It is not working here.
 
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Here is my take on the GF: We simply don't have enough information. We project our biases on it. Frankly I have never been overly convinced by the Bullish case on GF progress, but it is no worse than the Bear case.

To me it feels like what we observe is explainable by a large range of possibilities, from "Tesla is Sh****ing the bed" to "Tesla is doing better than forecasted". We simply don't know. Its like arguing over tea leaves. I have the same feeling about arguing over the true capacity of Fremont. We simply don't know. So if you are inclined to think the worst, you make that case. If you are inclined to the think the best you make that case.
 
Moderator's Note:
Far too much prodding and provoking occurring in the prior dozen or so posts. The worst offenses have been cut but the overall tenor of the discussion is both unproductive as well as demeaning to most of the current authors. Certain of you received explanations but were truncated from what I intended to say -

the overall gist is that it is hard for others to think of yourselves as smart when you don't seem to realize it's never smart to get into a certain kind of match with a skunk.