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Tesla Official Statement on Range

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aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,196
1,625
Los Angeles
Was this new or used? If it's new you should call Tesla immediately

Doubt if that will help. Tesla will just say it is normal, and car is performing as designed. UNLESS you are within the 7 day return window!

Keep track of the degradation using SMT or equal. fi it approaches 30% you MIGHT be able to make a warranty claim. probably either the degradation will stop at 10% or so and level off, or you will have a complete battery failure which is rare.

On the second point, what was the wh/mi consumption for the 175 mile trip? I'm guessing a lot more than 240. if so, it is driving habits and AC/heater use, and or Vampire Drain, ie sentry mode or overheat protection on.
 
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rydenfan

Member
Jun 23, 2020
26
4
Massachusetts
Doubt if that will help. Tesla will just say it is normal, and car is performing as designed. UNLESS you are within the 7 day return window!

Keep track of the degradation using SMT or equal. fi it approaches 30% you MIGHT be able to make a warranty claim. probably either the degradation will stop at 10% or so and level off, or you will have a complete battery failure which is rare.

On the second point, what was the wh/mi consumption for the 175 mile trip? I'm guessing a lot more than 240. if so, it is driving habits and AC/heater use, and or Vampire Drain, ie sentry mode or overheat protection on.


thank you. How would I find the wh/mi consumption for the trip?
 

aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,196
1,625
Los Angeles
thank you. How would I find the wh/mi consumption for the trip?


Go to the trip meter page. Even if you have not set the trip meter, there should be consumption "Since last Charge". However, if you have charged since then, you are out of luck.

I am not an M3 owner, so perhaps the description on your car uses different wording.

Also, I hear the 7 day return window closed last week.

I would follow up immediately with your SA, and request service through the App.

sorry for the double post...
 

dfwatt

Active Member
Sep 24, 2018
3,016
5,035
FL
Doubt if that will help. Tesla will just say it is normal, and car is performing as designed. UNLESS you are within the 7 day return window!

Keep track of the degradation using SMT or equal. fi it approaches 30% you MIGHT be able to make a warranty claim. probably either the degradation will stop at 10% or so and level off, or you will have a complete battery failure which is rare.

On the second point, what was the wh/mi consumption for the 175 mile trip? I'm guessing a lot more than 240. if so, it is driving habits and AC/heater use, and or Vampire Drain, ie sentry mode or overheat protection on.

You mean to argue that 15 + percent battery degradation on a brand new vehicle is within Tesla specs? Really? Curious what your source of information is in that regard.
 

dfwatt

Active Member
Sep 24, 2018
3,016
5,035
FL
brand new
The range loss is for sure much more of a red flag than the consumption at least per se. If the temperatures were cold and your speeds were high and you were using any heat it's easy to go through that much battery. But what's really troubling is your 90% range estimate is way off of what you should have in a new vehicle. Anybody who tells you including Tesla that that's within spec is drunk.
 

aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,196
1,625
Los Angeles
You mean to argue that 15 + percent battery degradation on a brand new vehicle is within Tesla specs? Really? Curious what your source of information is in that regard.

I am pretty sure Tesla would say that, based on the warranty and all the weasel words within.

Not saying I think it is normal at all. If the OP can return the car that would be what I would recommend.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,416
11,313
San Diego
brand new

Anybody who tells you including Tesla that that's within spec is drunk.

Yes, this would be a bad result even if 20" wheels were selected.

@rydenfan, which wheels do you have selected?

There are a lot of factors at play here, but there are two SEPARATE issues:

1) How much energy does your battery contain at 90% or 100%? This is determined directly by your rated miles.

2) How efficient is the vehicle (a totally separate issue)? This will determine how far you can go, once you know how much energy you have.


Your rated miles seem low, but we'll need more information. A picture might help. Swapping wheel configs between 20", 19", 18" does not change the energy your car has, but it does change the number of miles displayed. 20" will be lower numbers, 19" will be in between, and 18" will be the highest.

For a brand new 2020 vehicle, you really should be at:
20" 269 @90%, 299 @100%
19" 274 @90%, 304 @100%
18" 290 @90%, 322 @100%

All of these vehicles with these numbers have the same amount of energy available.

As you can see, 260 @90% is low even if you happen to have selected a 20" wheel configuration. BTW, you can select whatever wheel configuration you want and it will change the numbers, even if you don't have 20" wheels installed. This is for 2020 vehicles only. For other vehicles it just changes the trip planner assumptions & predictions.
 
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hcdavis3

HCD3
Mar 3, 2019
1,835
1,069
02571
Yes, this would be a bad result even if 20" wheels were selected.

@rydenfan, which wheels do you have selected?

There are a lot of factors at play here, but there are two SEPARATE issues:

1) How much energy does your battery contain at 90% or 100%? This is determined directly by your rated miles.

2) How efficient is the vehicle (a totally separate issue)? This will determine how far you can go, once you know how much energy you have.


Your rated miles seem low, but we'll need more information. A picture might help. Swapping wheel configs between 20", 19", 18" does not change the energy your car has, but it does change the number of miles displayed. 20" will be lower numbers, 19" will be in between, and 18" will be the highest.

For a brand new 2020 vehicle, you really should be at:
20" 269 @90%, 299 @100%
19" 274 @90%, 304 @100%
18" 290 @90%, 322 @100%

All of these vehicles with these numbers have the same amount of energy available.

As you can see, 260 @90% is low even if you happen to have selected a 20" wheel configuration. BTW, you can select whatever wheel configuration you want and it will change the numbers, even if you don't have 20" wheels installed. This is for 2020 vehicles only. For other vehicles it just changes the trip planner assumptions & predictions.
Alan, please tell me that my degradation is not normal. This over 3 months and 3500 miles. Every time I charge range goes down most of the time.
 

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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,416
11,313
San Diego
Alan, please tell me that my degradation is not normal. This over 3 months and 3500 miles. Every time I charge range goes down most of the time.

It looks to me that that is worse than average, for sure. The only thing I would say is that I would ignore TeslaFi numbers and use the numbers predicted by the vehicle & the app, though. Since they are less affected by temperature. But I doubt that is the issue here.

Your numbers, however, I believe are within the normal distribution. Probably 5th percentile or so. Not sure. Notwithstanding above comments, you have lost 4.6kWh or so, as far as the BMS is concerned. That's totally normal in general, but it's happening a bit early for you.
 
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rydenfan

Member
Jun 23, 2020
26
4
Massachusetts
Yes, this would be a bad result even if 20" wheels were selected.

@rydenfan, which wheels do you have selected?

There are a lot of factors at play here, but there are two SEPARATE issues:

1) How much energy does your battery contain at 90% or 100%? This is determined directly by your rated miles.

2) How efficient is the vehicle (a totally separate issue)? This will determine how far you can go, once you know how much energy you have.


Your rated miles seem low, but we'll need more information. A picture might help. Swapping wheel configs between 20", 19", 18" does not change the energy your car has, but it does change the number of miles displayed. 20" will be lower numbers, 19" will be in between, and 18" will be the highest.

For a brand new 2020 vehicle, you really should be at:
20" 269 @90%, 299 @100%
19" 274 @90%, 304 @100%
18" 290 @90%, 322 @100%

All of these vehicles with these numbers have the same amount of energy available.

As you can see, 260 @90% is low even if you happen to have selected a 20" wheel configuration. BTW, you can select whatever wheel configuration you want and it will change the numbers, even if you don't have 20" wheels installed. This is for 2020 vehicles only. For other vehicles it just changes the trip planner assumptions & predictions.

18" Aero wheels with the Aero caps removed

I think 90% said 261 miles but I will need to double check

I was driving pretty normal speed of like 65-70 and not blasting the air or anything like that
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,416
11,313
San Diego
I think 90% said 261 miles but I will need to double check

I was driving pretty normal speed of like 65-70 and not blasting the air or anything like that

Yeah, double check it. That's pretty awful. Like others have said, it's bad enough for a brand new vehicle I'd strongly consider returning the vehicle if it is within the 7-day return window still. It looks like you got it on September 18th though so you are out of luck. It implies about 10% capacity loss in about a month (289 rated miles (AWD 18" 2020) is 69.6kWh, which means you've lost 8kWh vs. a typical vehicle that is a month old - typically a month-old vehicle would have 77.6kWh of battery capacity).



Again, remember that the above two items are two completely separate (though related) issues. The first is your available energy (the higher the better). The second statement is in regards to your efficiency. Once you have both pieces you can figure out how far you should be able to go.
 
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rydenfan

Member
Jun 23, 2020
26
4
Massachusetts
Yeah, double check it. That's pretty awful. Like others have said, it's bad enough for a brand new vehicle I'd strongly consider returning the vehicle if it is within the 7-day return window still. It looks like you got it on September 18th though so you are out of luck. It implies about 10% capacity loss in about a month (289 rated miles (AWD 18" 2020) is 69.6kWh, which means you've lost 8kWh vs. a typical vehicle that is a month old - typically a month-old vehicle would have 77.6kWh of battery capacity).



Again, remember that the above two items are two completely separate (though related) issues. The first is your available energy (the higher the better). The second statement is in regards to your efficiency. Once you have both pieces you can figure out how far you should be able to go.


Thanks. It is sitting in my garage so I just checked. it's stating 85% and when I switch to distance it says 251 miles

If I am doing the second part correct it says 269 projected and 225 average...so is that 60.525?
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,416
11,313
San Diego
I guess it must be the trunk spoiler

it's stating 85% and when I switch to distance it says 251 miles

Yeah that's kind of bad. Slightly better than you said though. It implies 295 @ 100% (251/0.85)

If I am doing the second part correct it says 269 projected and 225 average...so is that 60.525?

This is just the Energy Consumption page. The numbers you quote: 251 rated miles, 269 projected, with 225Wh/mi average, implies your vehicle charging constant is 241Wh/rmi:

269 miles * 225Wh/mi / 251 rmi = 241Wh/rmi

That's just how this page works, but I wouldn't read more into it than that. But what it does tell me is that not only does your car have 18" wheels, you also have NOT accidentally changed your wheel configuration to 20" (the avatar of your car has the aeros on it), which would be one possible reason you could see 295 and still be "ok." But that's not what is happening here. Since your 241Wh/rmi constant is what we expect for a car with 322 rated miles at 77.6kWh (77.6kWh / 322rmi = 241Wh/rmi)

So your battery capacity according to the BMS is 295rmi*241Wh/rmi = 71.1kWh (vs. 77.6kWh typical for a new vehicle) 8.4% loss.

It is what it is. You'll just be dealing with this from hereon out. I recommend not worrying too much about it since there is not much you can do at this point. You can hope that your rated range does not decrease much from here (possible). Or you could hope that you lose a lot more I suppose (22% more) and qualify for a warranty replacement.

This is one of the worse reports I've seen for a vehicle a month old. I assume you don't have many miles on it.

However, there's nothing you can do about it - Tesla will not do anything until you get to about 240 rated miles at 100% (then it might be worth discussing with them, even though you would not meet the warranty threshold at that point). The warranty threshold for 2020 18" AWD is 225 rated miles at 100%. (70% of original capacity, 54.2kWh)

There have been cases of main battery failure, and they do tend to be correlated with large amounts of range loss to start with, so that's still possible that that will occur. I haven't seen one of those reports for a while though. Haven't been paying attention.
 

rydenfan

Member
Jun 23, 2020
26
4
Massachusetts
Yeah that's kind of bad. Slightly better than you said though. It implies 295 @ 100% (251/0.85)



This is just the Energy Consumption page. The numbers you quote: 251 rated miles, 269 projected, with 225Wh/mi average, implies your vehicle charging constant is 241Wh/rmi:

269 miles * 225Wh/mi / 251 rmi = 241Wh/rmi

That's just how this page works, but I wouldn't read more into it than that. But what it does tell me is that not only does your car have 18" wheels, you also have NOT accidentally changed your wheel configuration to 20" (the avatar of your car has the aeros on it), which would be one possible reason you could see 295 and still be "ok." But that's not what is happening here. Since your 241Wh/rmi constant is what we expect for a car with 322 rated miles at 77.6kWh (77.6kWh / 322rmi = 241Wh/rmi)

So your battery capacity according to the BMS is 295rmi*241Wh/rmi = 71.1kWh (vs. 77.6kWh typical for a new vehicle) 8.4% loss.

It is what it is. You'll just be dealing with this from hereon out. I recommend not worrying too much about it since there is not much you can do at this point. You can hope that your rated range does not decrease much from here (possible). Or you could hope that you lose a lot more I suppose (22% more) and qualify for a warranty replacement.

This is one of the worse reports I've seen for a vehicle a month old. I assume you don't have many miles on it.

However, there's nothing you can do about it - Tesla will not do anything until you get to about 240 rated miles at 100% (then it might be worth discussing with them, even though you would not meet the warranty threshold at that point). The warranty threshold for 2020 18" AWD is 225 rated miles at 100%. (70% of original capacity, 54.2kWh)

There have been cases of main battery failure, and they do tend to be correlated with large amounts of range loss to start with, so that's still possible that that will occur. I haven't seen one of those reports for a while though. Haven't been paying attention.


Pretty tough not to obsess about this...the vehicle has a total of 255 miles on it. No way it should have that level of degradation
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,416
11,313
San Diego
Pretty tough not to obsess about this...the vehicle has a total of 255 miles on it. No way it should have that level of degradation

Yeah, understood, I'm just telling you there's nothing you can do; you likely have no recourse. Of course you can contact Tesla (and you probably should), but unless they find an issue, they won't do anything. I am sure they will find your battery is worse than most. But it's probably not yet as bad as the worst 2020 Model 3 AWD 18" (but whichever vehicle that is, it has a lot more miles than yours).

This is all something they can do remotely, so there's not really any downside to contacting Tesla in this case. Just keep your expectations low.

Another thing you can do, of course, is cycle your car down to 5-10% and then recharge it to 100% (and then immediately drive it or run the heat full blast for an hour or two to get it down to 90%). Very unlikely to help, but you never know. Not too much downside there either, but I'd just do it one time.

There have been instances of the CAC estimate being wrong, but it's not that common. Anyway, another reason to be patient. It will adjust this value periodically (but I'm not expecting any miracles, to be clear).

If it is persistent, though, make no mistake that it indeed DOES limit your achievable range, when comparing to a comparable vehicle with 322 rated miles at 100%. This is a real limitation. Your range will be 8% less than that hypothetical vehicle for a similar trip, all else being equal.

Let us know how it goes.
 
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toolman335

Member
Oct 3, 2019
842
593
Rochester
Wow sorry to hear this. I have also heard the 7 day window might be going away but I'm not sure where that currently stands. Usually I tell people to switch to % and stop worrying, but this is quite out of the norm.

A lot of people have had luck going to this thread(Sorry I don't know how to embed the link):
How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

You can find that thread under the battery/charging section of TMC.
 

rydenfan

Member
Jun 23, 2020
26
4
Massachusetts
Yeah, understood, I'm just telling you there's nothing you can do; you likely have no recourse. Of course you can contact Tesla (and you probably should), but unless they find an issue, they won't do anything. I am sure they will find your battery is worse than most. But it's probably not yet as bad as the worst 2020 Model 3 AWD 18" (but whichever vehicle that is, it has a lot more miles than yours).

This is all something they can do remotely, so there's not really any downside to contacting Tesla in this case. Just keep your expectations low.

Another thing you can do, of course, is cycle your car down to 5-10% and then recharge it to 100% (and then immediately drive it or run the heat full blast for an hour or two to get it down to 90%). Very unlikely to help, but you never know. Not too much downside there either, but I'd just do it one time.

There have been instances of the CAC estimate being wrong, but it's not that common. Anyway, another reason to be patient. It will adjust this value periodically (but I'm not expecting any miracles, to be clear).

If it is persistent, though, make no mistake that it indeed DOES limit your achievable range, when comparing to a comparable vehicle with 322 rated miles at 100%. This is a real limitation. Your range will be 8% less than that hypothetical vehicle for a similar trip, all else being equal.

Let us know how it goes.


as you predicted I reached out to Tesla to do a diagnostic and they said it's "normal." It was all the typical BS that was expected. And now to add insult to injury my car is a month old and it says the 12v battery needs to be replaced. I contacted them about this as well and more of the same story. Unreal...
 

3ngineer

Member
Nov 26, 2019
59
12
Mass
Can I please get some feedback on whether this comparison is valid? I did some searching and browsing here and on Tesla's site and didn't see a clear answer (possible "ebcak").

I charge my car nearly every night in the garage. On a single trip after unplugging, I see distance traveled and Wh/mi. Multiplying these gives me units of energy consumed (E_c]. Also, my range estimate next to the battery icon decreases by X. X*78.27 kWh/310 mi (EPA rating for 2018 LR AWD) is also units of energy, amount decreased in actual battery (E_d).

As long as I'm not using energy while parked, E_d should equal E_c, correct? (Assuming E_c does not display parked consumption, please let me know if this is dis/proven). My car has E_c about 76% of E_d rather consistently, which seems like something is really off (and also indicates even in the summer with HVAC off my lifetime best consumption was never below 266 Wh/mi actual battery drop, which is crazy in comparison to people I see averaging in low 200s). The service center wants to focus the conversation on what affects consumption rate, even though I try to communicate the battery capacity is what seems off.

Are my assumptions/expectations invalid? If so, can someone please point out to me the why?
 
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