Tesla Only Wall Charger or Tesla Universal Wall Charger (House Power Share Feature)?

[Watts_Up]

Instead of Tesla offering an upgrade to a bi-directional on-board charger,
I would prefer that Tesla provide a firmware update that's compliant with other bi-directional DC chargers that use CCS like dcBel or Wallbox Quasar. That is a much better solution for Tesla cars that are already on the road. With a CCS adapter and CCS compliant charge port controller,

it's just firmware to allow DC to flow out of the vehicle and telling the charger how much it's allowed to take. Heck,
they can even charge a fee to enable this feature.

I don't think that typical home owners realise the additional complexity of adding an external power source to their home.

Unless you have already a Solar Power system with batteries, so the transition from Grid power to Off-Grid power is already provided,
in the case of someone trying to upgrade their Tesla charger with a bi-directional charger will require a very complex instalation.

As an example, beside the Solar case, when some one wants to use a gas generator in case of power outage, the gas generator is not connected
to the full house but to a switching subpanel where you can provide power only to essential devices, like your fridge, lighting, and heater...
In general, the switch is done manualy, but could be performed automatically like in the case of Solar power systems.

So using your car battery as external power source will requires to isolate the particulars devices that you want to energize
but also you need to isolate thoses electrical circuits from the GRID, like in the case of a Solar System.

I read that the new Tesla Universal Wall Charger to provide Power Share capability will require using a Gateway wich will be a costly system,
such as also describe in this article about the Quasar Wallbox:

World-first bi-directional EV chargers almost here​

​

Jet Charge to deliver V2G charging capability, allowing owners to turn their EV into a home battery​

​

Described by Jet Charge as “the world’s first bi-directional DC charger”, the Wallbox Quasar​

is said to cost around $10,000 for the average consumer and gives EV owners the potential​

to at least partially power their home or business using their vehicle’s battery.​

 

[miimura]

While I agree with everything you said, it is important to notice that the Jet Charge pricing is in Australian dollars. At today's exchange rates, that's only $6,575 USD.

The other thing that I will point out is that the Wallbox Quasar will be useful in Australia without having a grid disconnect. If it can simply balance the homeowner's grid draw so that they don't buy expensive peak electricity from the utility and don't give away or be penalized for feeding their solar to the grid at the wrong time, it will be a worthwhile purchase, even if it doesn't provide power in a grid outage. The grid metering situation there is significantly different than most parts of the USA.

 

[jjrandorin]

While I agree with everything you said, it is important to notice that the Jet Charge pricing is in Australian dollars. At today's exchange rates, that's only $6,575 USD.

The other thing that I will point out is that the Wallbox Quasar will be useful in Australia without having a grid disconnect. If it can simply balance the homeowner's grid draw so that they don't buy expensive peak electricity from the utility and don't give away or be penalized for feeding their solar to the grid at the wrong time, it will be a worthwhile purchase, even if it doesn't provide power in a grid outage. The grid metering situation there is significantly different than most parts of the USA.

I think the Ford Lightning home backup solution is somewhere around 10k+ (not including electrical upgrades that might be necessary).

I have no idea what Teslas cost to install this is, however the cybertruck foundation series comes with home backup according to things I am reading, HOWEVER anything > $4,000 cost to install will have to be homeowner paid. That means to me that the "base price" is expected to be around 4k, not counting electrical needs / upgrades.

The portrayal of people just rolling up to plug in their EV to power their home sounds fancy to many people, but like @Watts_Up said and you probably agree with, a lot of people dont have any idea what its going to take.

 

[miimura]

Yes, the installation cost of any kind of automatic backup power system is a multi-thousand dollar proposition. It doesn't matter if you're talking about Powerwall installation, Ford Backup Power Pro, Cybertruck Powershare, or even a natural gas standby generator. It's true, most people don't understand that.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yes, the installation cost of any kind of automatic backup power system is a multi-thousand dollar proposition. It doesn't matter if you're talking about Powerwall installation, Ford Backup Power Pro, Cybertruck Powershare, or even a natural gas standby generator. It's true, most people don't understand that.

Which is why I ended up installing a natural gas standby generator. If I'm going through all the trouble and expense to put one in, I'd like one that a) served the whole house and b) didn't run out of juice after a few hours.

 

[wattsupguys]

Instead of Tesla offering an upgrade to a bi-directional on-board charger, I would prefer that Tesla provide a firmware update that's compliant with other bi-directional DC chargers that use CCS like dcBel or Wallbox Quasar. That is a much better solution for Tesla cars that are already on the road. With a CCS adapter and CCS compliant charge port controller, it's just firmware to allow DC to flow out of the vehicle and telling the charger how much it's allowed to take. Heck, they can even charge a fee to enable this feature.

I hope this doesn't come off as a fanboy response, because it's not my intent, but if the Wallbox costs $6-7k as suggested by the posts above, it seems like it's a draw, given that you can/could get a Powerwall with gateway installed for 9k direct from Tesla (6k after the 30% tax rebate for battery storage) whereas most EV charging installs seem to not be eligible for a tax credit if you aren't rural, and the EV charger credit is capped at $1k if you can even get it? And in the case of the Powerwall, you also get a home battery that can power your house during an outage while you drive your car to a supercharger elsewhere to bring back more power.

And the installed base of powerwalls who just need a compatible car is probably quite a bit larger than the number of people looking to spend the same amount on a system without a battery, and Tesla already has done the work for Virtual Power Plants to earn back money on the investment, which makes a lead that's hard to overcome.

I still agree that standards and compatibility with them are best for the long-run of V2H backup/time shifting solutions and the competition of being able to purchase EVs from multiple manufacturers helps bring down prices and drive innovation, but I'm hoping these products make it to market ASAP and are somewhat useable with the existing PowerWall infrastructure in which we already have invested.

 

[Eric33432]

Which is why I ended up installing a natural gas standby generator. If I'm going through all the trouble and expense to put one in, I'd like one that a) served the whole house and b) didn't run out of juice after a few hours.

I hope this doesn't come off as a fanboy response, because it's not my intent, but if the Wallbox costs $6-7k as suggested by the posts above, it seems like it's a draw, given that you can/could get a Powerwall with gateway installed for 9k direct from Tesla (6k after the 30% tax rebate for battery storage) whereas most EV charging installs seem to not be eligible for a tax credit if you aren't rural, and the EV charger credit is capped at $1k if you can even get it?

To install any sort of backup power requires the house to be disconnected from the grid during an outage. The "wallbox" alone will not do that.

In the case of a generator, you use a manual or automatic transfer switch (for example, in my case I have 3 200 amp automatic transfer switches) for the entire electrical service, or the part of the electrical service you wish to have backed up. If it is a partial backup, you have to move the circuits you wish to back up to a special panel for such loads.

Some people back feed generators into their panel with an interlock that requires the main circuit breaker to be off to be able to turn on the back back feed breaker, and then turn off circuit breakers for circuits they do not have the ability to power from their generator.

In the case of solar/power walls you can install a Tesla Solar Gateway. You either install enough batteries to power the whole house, or make a decision as to which circuits you want to back up and as with a generator, you install a special backup panel if you do not want to spend the money to install a large enough system to power the entire house.

If solar/power walls, you also need to ensure you have enough panels to keep the batteries charged up for whatever time period you want to be able to power the circuits you are backing up, and you need to consider that in the winter months the sun does not shine as long as it does during the summer months.

All a Wall Connector can do is feed power into your home. You need a lot of additional equipment to be installed to make it work and you need to do a lot of engineering to be sure it has the capacity and equipment to work correctly to accomplish whatever backup goals you have.

Without a power wall, when feeding power into your house from the Cyber Truck, you also need to install an auto transformer or similar device to derive the neutral current that split phase electrical systems require, as the Universal Wall Connector is strictly a 240 volt device.

Here are a couple of photos of my back up system and solar inverters, which is a 60 kW generator that will run my entire house indefinitely, along with 2 7.8 kW Tesla inverters for my 14.8 kW solar system. The solar system only works when tied to the grid, during a power outage it does not work and is disconnected from my home by the generator transfer switches.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I ended going with a kohler 38 kW generator, and since I have a 400A service, just went with a single 400A transfer switch. Could I max out 38 kW of power? Sure, but easy enough to make sure I don’t have a lot of high loads operating during a blackout. Last two outages I had, I was drawing around 20 kW max. with no load shedding.

 

[wwu123]

I hope this doesn't come off as a fanboy response, because it's not my intent, but if the Wallbox costs $6-7k as suggested by the posts above, it seems like it's a draw, given that you can/could get a Powerwall with gateway installed for 9k direct from Tesla (6k after the 30% tax rebate for battery storage) whereas most EV charging installs seem to not be eligible for a tax credit if you aren't rural, and the EV charger credit is capped at $1k if you can even get it? And in the case of the Powerwall, you also get a home battery that can power your house during an outage while you drive your car to a supercharger elsewhere to bring back more power.

...

Wow, what county do you live in that you can get a Powerwall fully installed for $9K from Tesla? In my county they charge that much just for the equipment alone, dropped off in your driveway. With installation, it's been consistently around $15-16K at least for the past 18 months - I'd get one in a heartbeat if I could get it for $9K before tax incentives....

I wonder if the install costs for Powershare could be made more predictable by having more of an option for a partial home backup option/scenario, with either a manual or app-controlled backup switch/panel. It's not as sexy a whole-home backup, but maybe more consistent install process. Since the V2H vehicle is not necessarily at home during every outage, it's not like automatic transfer will always work as the vehicle needs to be brought home and the vehicle plugged into the bi-di charger - and since the vehicle needs to power the Gateway in the non-Powerwall scenario, the gateway can't make the switch without the vehicle anyways.

Relocating 8-12 circuits from existing panel to backup panel is fairly straightforward process (though can't predict whether installers will overcharge), and you don't have to worry about possible added complexities of installing a Gateway in front of the main panel. In fact, for a lot of California panels with integrated meters, I believe to get the Gateway in front of the loads for whole house backup, you have to basically relocate everything from the main panel to new subpanels behind the Gateway. The only oddity compared to a typical generator transfer switch or partial backup scenario is putting your wall charger in the backup panel for Powershare - but added benefit here is you can still load-shift the partial backup loads in on-grid situations. Maybe you can't make full use of the 11kw from the Cybertruck with partial backup, but you can get most of the critical loads....

 

[wattsupguys]

Wow, what county do you live in that you can get a Powerwall fully installed for $9K from Tesla? In my county they charge that much just for the equipment alone, dropped off in your driveway. With installation, it's been consistently around $15-16K at least for the past 18 months - I'd get one in a heartbeat if I could get it for $9K before tax incentives....

I had seen that price ordering a single Powerwall direct from Tesla. Went back and checked now for an address in Southern California and the price is showing as $8400 before 30% tax credit:

Just realized that does not include installation costs. Sorry! That is where all of the local installers are fleecing us. 4 years ago I paid around 12500 for one Powerwall installed before a 2900 SGIP rebate and then got a 30% tax credit on the remainder, so it was about 7k total cost.

 

[davenlei]

Ok so not sure if this is real or just more internet BS but this guy is claiming the Chinese MY and M3 Tesla's can do V2L power sharing already but the US version with NACS cannot.

Tesla's can do Vehicle To Load V2L right now!

Not sure if that 'converter' is actually a smallish battery pack and inverter to fake it or not.

 

[ninpb]

A lot of this is over my head but it's really making the CT value-add compelling. My usage doesn't warrant a powerwall but it is a new tick on the pro column for CT purchase. Also knowing that my friend spent around 8k to build a "dumb" battery backup that just sits in his garage that was maybe used 1 time for 1hr last year. He also loaded it into his van for a camping trip that was just an awful experience. Also glad I see a bunch of posters from SoCal, OC.

 

[jjrandorin]

I had seen that price ordering a single Powerwall direct from Tesla. Went back and checked now for an address in Southern California and the price is showing as $8400 before 30% tax credit:

And also shown as "before installation costs". If you actually try to buy that and get it installed on a home that has no solar or existing install of anything, the installation cost is going to be 4-6k, so the total cost to get a powerwall installed is going to be around 13-14K after taxes, permits etc... not "9k minus tax credit".

 

[wattsupguys]

And also shown as "before installation costs". If you actually try to buy that and get it installed on a home that has no solar or existing install of anything, the installation cost is going to be 4-6k, so the total cost to get a powerwall installed is going to be around 13-14K after taxes, permits etc... not "9k minus tax credit".

Just realized that does not include installation costs. Sorry! That is where all of the local installers are fleecing us.

Yes, as I pointed out in the post you quoted, below the screenshot, I was mistaken and realized that they were not quoting all-in costs including installation.

I wonder what an additional Powerwall would cost to an already installed system, but probably better to just wait for more Tesla models to get the Cybertruck's V2H capability and upgrade as you need a new vehicle if you can wait (one vehicle has 5-6 powerwalls of storage and can be had for the cost of about 3 powerwalls, plus you get a vehicle to drive for more utilization of the investment, and if you sell your house, that battery easily comes to the next....)

 

[jjrandorin]

I wonder what an additional Powerwall would cost to an already installed system

Depends on where you buy it, but the parts cost you saw doesnt change, and the installation cost on an existing system depends on the contractor but will likely be around 1-4k depending on whats installed, where, with what, new permits, etc.

 

[jimtelsa]

great information

Back to the Universal Wall unit

Are they all the same?

Just bought a Tesla Universal Wall Connector from Amazon

Same model number as Tesla. Tesla Box

Does not have the Powershare icon on the cover

Will this work for powershare needs or do I need a newer Universal unit with the power share icon

 

[OnTheSnap]

great information

Back to the Universal Wall unit

Are they all the same?

Just bought a Tesla Universal Wall Connector from Amazon

Same model number as Tesla. Tesla Box

Does not have the Powershare icon on the cover

Will this work for power-shar needs or do I need a newer Universal unit with the power share icon

Same question. I think all the universal wall connectors are bidirectional, with and without the logo. But no one has the v3 gateway yet to verify this for sure.

If there was a hardware change they would have changed the model. This is the way most all companies work. So 99% you are good to go.

 

[davenlei]

great information

Back to the Universal Wall unit

Are they all the same?

Just bought a Tesla Universal Wall Connector from Amazon

Same model number as Tesla. Tesla Box

Does not have the Powershare icon on the cover

Will this work for powershare needs or do I need a newer Universal unit with the power share icon

I bought my universal wall charger from Tesla directly and it does not have the powershare logo either so I think they are are capable regardless of the logo or not since the description online said it is powershare capable.

 

[travwill]

Just to add to this thread, got a new universal wall charger here today, few months later. It does NOT have the PowerShare logo on the glass (at least like the one line in pics) but they confirmed it should still be bidirectional. Sure hope so.

 

[davenlei]

Just to add to this thread, got a new universal wall charger here today, few months later. It does NOT have the PowerShare logo on the glass (at least like the one line in pics) but they confirmed it should still be bidirectional. Sure hope so.

Yea, mine does not have the logo either but was assured it does do bi-directional.