Tesla removed power on the P100D. P85D is quicker

[Grumble]

I think an electronic device is going to be able to increase throttle position from 0-100% faster than any human foot, however like you said, it depends if the motor can respond that quickly.

More importantly is the physics behind it. Going from 0-100% throttle in 1ms may just roast the tires.

Sometimes the lazy foot provides the traction you need.

 

[bredi]

I also noticed a reduction in wow factor, but I went from a 85d to a 100d. I was expecting "uncorked" 0-60 3.6ish. But the 100d "feels" slower and I "feel" that my 85d was a faster car. When I brought this up at Tesla SC, a tech engineer said that it is the "extra weight" of the 100d.

 

[Grumble]

To add, launch mode I think it's supposed to do this however I can almost feel it pulling power on the street so not sure how to overcome this other than maybe pulling the traction control fuse

 

[scottm]

With all the data, Tesla has probably figured out a "fling curve" that gets better target results with smoother delivery. Versus a "smash hit" that lurches all the mounting bolts loose in the first sub-second. The smash hit always feels faster (and maybe it is, initially for the first few feet) but the fling gets the results. And the result Tesla is after is not the first 20 feet ... it's the end of the dash.

Watch this:

For this experiment, the same vehicle is used (ball, size, weight, and acceleration = gravity).
The race is the horizontal position along the table.
The same car tuned differently can perform like any of these curves.

But let's assume the smash hit (track on the bottom)... is how the original P85D was tuned.
The fling curve (middle track) ... is how the P100D is tuned.

Look at that impressive "movement" (feeling) of the P85D (smash hit) ball drop in the first moment of the race during it's "free fall" phase, acceleration = gravity. But at no time is the P85D actually ahead (horizontal distance) of the P100D race.

The slower-to-start P100D (on its fling curve) handily wins in reaching the finish line goal in less time, with a smoother and more constant power delivery. Fling versus punch that do the same amount of work.

Unlike the experiment, P100D and P85D are not equally powered cars. Imagine P100D tuned to smash hit, which is more power than P85D so it would feel even more crazy at the beginning. But the P100D tuned to smash wouldn't win against itself tuned to a fling curve, like it is.

Tuning a car for a fling lets Tesla use a more consistent power delivery for a better end result for any given car. Unless they screw it up in software, like maybe they do sometimes.

 

[scottm]

I think an electronic device is going to be able to increase throttle position from 0-100% faster than any human foot, however like you said, it depends if the motor can respond that quickly.

When I looked at throttle plate to pedal position mapping of my gas car, I saw that at 60% of pedal travel the throttle was already 100% open. Basically the last 40% of the pedal is useless but feels good to mash it there. Yes, I could have tuned the map to use more of the pedal travel which would have made the car feel even more sluggish than what it was (pressing harder to get the same result). Or, I could have tuned the curve to more aggressively open the throttle but still be maxed out at 60% travel, or I could have shortened the pedal travel to max out throttle at say 50% of travel, but I figured that would make the pedal feel more and more finicky... hard to dial in what you want and calls for small foot movement controls... and ultimately would hurt the fuel economy because the tendency would be to "over press" for what is really needed.

Keep in mind this was all for a gas car, which cannot really respond quickly enough to small differences in pedal input to make an overall difference. The problem is not how fast the driver can press the pedal... it's about what the car can do in responding to that input.

On an electric car, the motor is immediate response. But still, it is the limiting factor not the driver's right foot and pedal mapping. Any kind of map in the footwell region is good enough and an average physically enabled person can "overwhelm" what the car is capable of doing in a few milliseconds. That's why I think remapping a pedal is a total waste of money and effort, gas, or electric car.

For a drag race, imagine replacing the pedal with a binary switch. 100% power request at 1 degree of travel. I bet such a car wouldn't do appreciably better at the finish line than the car's standard pedal map.. because both drivers know to time 100% release before the light turns green. So long as you know your map and are familiar with it... you're good.

 

[Krash]

Thanks for info
Easy to see how the P85D and P90D is way faster the first meters

No. Not quicker the first few meters. The higher power only matters at high speeds. The torque settings are higher on the P100D, which more than makes up for any extra weight.

We need to figure out how to remap the power delivery system...What matters is what the motor is doing.

There is no power delivery map. There is only max torque and max power. What the motor is doing is following max torque until you reach max power limits. If you could change max torque, you would be notorious.

...it depends if the motor can respond that quickly.

More importantly is the physics behind it. Going from 0-100% throttle in 1ms may just roast the tires.

Sometimes the lazy foot provides the traction you need.

The motor can respond faster than the torque limits, as witnessed by the uncorking of the 75Ds even on the old drive units. They have plenty of headroom. Tesla picks the settings and the tires. You can't roast them on dry clear roadway. And yes your foot is faster than the torque limit.

...I bet such a car wouldn't do appreciably better at the finish line than the car's standard pedal map.. because both drivers know to time 100% release before the light turns green. So long as you know your map and are familiar with it... you're good.

Exactly

 

[Christopher1]

My P85D deliver more power at lower speed. Trust me when i say its way faster when Im crossing a street

 

[Grumble]

My P85D deliver more power at lower speed. Trust me when i say its way faster when Im crossing a street

Get a dragy or go to the track and post your 60' time. Should be able to see how quick it is off the line.

 

[gnuarm]

My P85D deliver more power at lower speed. Trust me when i say its way faster when Im crossing a street

I don't know if you realize this, but power isn't what creates acceleration. The torque defines the acceleration. The power is the result of actually moving the car since it includes speed.

 

[Gen3]

I don't know if you realize this, but power isn't what creates acceleration. The torque defines the acceleration. The power is the result of actually moving the car since it includes speed.

Is there not a direct relationship between power and torque?

 

[Krash]

Is there not a direct relationship between power and torque?

The max torque limit creates an initial linear growth in power: more torque means a steeper rate of change, but still linear. Car weight and drive ratio also factor. You can see me get schooled on the math here.

Once that linear power growth reaches the battery limit then the power is almost constant and torque declines as RPM imcreases. The eventual, gradual power decline at higher speeds is attributed to motor design. Some think specifically Back Electromagnetic Force. Here is a generic diagram, but all the CANBus and API samples of performance runs contributed by forum members in the performance metrics look similar:

(image (not originally) from electrek.co)

 

[gnuarm]

Is there not a direct relationship between power and torque?

Yes, the speed. Torque is rotational force. Force is mass times acceleration, F = M • A. Work or energy is force times distance. Power is the rate of work, so force times distance divided by time or force times speed.

So the two are directly related by the RPM or the speed of the car, however you prefer to look at it in these cars with one gear. But the point is at all times, the acceleration is a direct effect of the force applied. Trying to wedge horse power or kW in it's place is awkward since you then have to add speed to the equation.

I would like the console display to have a mode where instead of kW, it displays torque.

 

[gnuarm]

One nice thing about the performance issues of EVs is that we seem to have finally started using metric data instead of anthropic units like foot pounds and horsepower.

 

[Christopher1]

The shitty side is that they remove power OTA.
Not joking, The Toyota Dyna pickup at work. Has better throttle response..
I`m making a "comparing" film to show you. also bringing in the S 75D. In revers. it has better reaction then my 100 as well..

 

[scottm]

Dude! If a pickup truck has better response than your 100D you need to:
1) Turn off valet mode
2) Turn off chill mode
3) post a video of that drag race, you should get a lot of clicks,
4) get that Tesla car looked at by the SC, they should come knocking on your door after seeing the video!

Maybe check are the brakes dragging? (wheel hot to the touch?)

Here's a "diagnostic idea" try disconnecting the wheel speed sensor on either of the front wheels, or pull the fuse out that controls the vehicle safety dynamics... and see if that changes responsiveness off the line. Without this feedback loop the car isn't as self-limiting.

 

[Christopher1]

You dont need chill mode in the P100D these days..
pulling the fuse wont give you more response. (The only problem witch this car, is the SW and delay in torque. )
People have sent me PM with the same problem, Punch is gone.
I hope they write in this thread later.

 

[scottm]

Chill mode is not a cold temperature thing, its a power limiter on dual motor cars. I thought it was on all dual motors but maybe the "P" models or ones with Ludicrous package don't have a button for it. (Our model 3 has it, my old model S no).

Is yours set to on?

 

[bhzmark]

Recent May P100DLs times on Dragy:

1/4 10.89, 10.97
0-60 2.73, 2.81
60 ft 1.63, 1.7

Best ever p85d Dragy times:

1/4: 11.53, 11.58 (me)
0-60 3.14, 3.22, 3.26 (me)
60 ft: 1.71, 1.76 (me)


If you think your P100DL is slower than a P85DL, take the costco sale on cat litter out of your trunk, or go to the SC to see if you have a hardware problem.

 

[St Charles]

I feel like i've experienced this. If i mash the gas, sometimes there is a half second lag before the car takes off. I've only noticed this on the street and only when I am already moving slowly. I don't think I could reproduce it reliably

EDIT: Ok here is how I would explain it. It's like what happens when you think you are in launch mode but the car just yells at you for holding the brake and accelerator at the same time. If you release the brake, the car hesitates a bit before taking off.

 

[bhzmark]

I feel like i've experienced this. If i mash the gas, sometimes there is a half second lag before the car takes off. I've only noticed this on the street and only when I am already moving slowly. I don't think I could reproduce it reliably

EDIT: Ok here is how I would explain it. It's like what happens when you think you are in launch mode but the car just yells at you for holding the brake and accelerator at the same time. If you release the brake, the car hesitates a bit before taking off.

Many months ago, maybe > 1 year ago, before all the software update worrying, TRC channel reported losing a street race because of the aggressive P100DL traction control — its was that 4wd pickup. They complained that it was more aggressive traction control type feeling that killed them.

Is it that? Ever happen at the strip with sticky surface? Or perhaps an aggressive obstacle aware detection thing? There was some speculation that that caused a problem too, but it can be turned off.