Tesla Sales Banned in New Jersey... hopefully not for long!

[Bradleybang]

You seem to be correct. The NJ code is a mess, so I may have miseed something.

But I skimmed through it and there seem to be NO laws in New Jersey requiring dealers to be franchisees. There are also NO laws in New Jersey requiring motor vehicle manufacturers to be franchisors.

Nor is the Motor Vehicle Commission given the power to make such regulations.

So this is an "ultra vires" act by the Motor Vehicle Commision, and as such void.

Tesla is simply not a franchisor.

The New York State law is similar (though much shorter and clearer) and IIRC the New York State courts have already ruled on this matter, in favor of Tesla.

IMHO Tesla should immediately file a lawsuit to overturn the MVC ruling on the grounds that it is ultra vires. I think this has to be pled against the officials on the MVC in their official capacities, and I forget what the suit type is called. Tesla should be able to get an immediate order prohibiting enforcement of the illegal regulation (I forget what kind of order is wanted).

I'm not a lawyer or even a paralegal. I do seem to be better at law than the incompetent jokers on Tesla's legal team.

I posted it earlier in thread. Here it is again.

56:10-26. Definitions
d. "Motor vehicle franchisee" means a person to whom a franchise is granted by a motor vehicle franchisor and who or which holds a current valid motor vehicle dealer's license issued pursuant to R.S.39:10-19 and has an established place of business;
e. "Motor vehicle franchisor" means a person engaged in the business of manufacturing, assembling or distributing new motor vehicles, or importing into the United States new motor vehicles manufactured or assembled in a foreign country, who will under normal business conditions during the year, manufacture, assemble, distribute or import at least 10 new motor vehicles;

56:10-27. Sales through franchises only
It shall be a violation of this act for any motor vehicle franchisor, directly or indirectly, through any officer, agent, employee, broker or any shareholder of the franchisor, except a shareholder of 1% or less of the outstanding shares of any class of securities of a franchisor which is a publicly traded corporation, or other person, to offer to sell or sell motor vehicles, to a consumer, other than an employee of the franchisor, except through a motor vehicle franchisee.

This is the new part just added by commission.
13:21-15.3 Proper person
(a) In order to be considered a proper person, an applicant must:

4. Be a motor vehicle franchisee under N.J.S.A. 56:10-26.d, as
evidenced by the franchise agreement(s) referenced in N.J.A.C.
13:21-15.2(m).

Who is the Joker?

 

[SteveG3]

when elon built his car empire he did that within his own space, now that he needs to operate in other people's sandboxes he needs to learn how to manipulate the owners of those sandboxes in order to get what he wants.

apvbguy, I look at it a little differently.

Elon is trying to build a sand castle. Around him are existing sand castles. Agreed he'd be making a mistake to look at those other castles and simply see loose sand he can take possession of and build with however he pleases. Where I disagree, I think the sand is not within a box, nor owned by anyone, and no castle is immune to rising and falling.

 

[apvbguy]

It's about the auto-dealers trying to make it as difficult as possible for people to buy Tesla cars.

no it is not, this is about the dealerships protecting the value of the franchises that they have to sell GM, Ford, or the many other brands of cars sold

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You keep reiterating the same point. But I (and apparently others) disagree with you. Tesla doesn't want to play the game the traditional way. They want to be, and are being, disruptive in many different ways, such as the vehicle itself, the manufacturing processes, the distribution network, the supercharger network, and the financial tools. I'm afraid you're the one not seeing the point.

regardless of whomever on this forum buys my argument the facts are that in NJ elon and his sales plans are holding the short end of the stick and all the huffing and puffing that elon can muster up will change nothing

 

[Chris TX]

As a Tesla owning Texan that lives in the hottest Tesla market in the US, I would like to welcome the State of New Jersey to the "You can't buy a Tesla here" club!

It is indeed sad for the existing sales infrastructure in NJ which might have to turn into "Galleries" while this plays out, but this publicity just proves you can't stop this freight train called Tesla Motors!

 

[apvbguy]

apvbguy, I look at it a little differently.

Elon is trying to build a sand castle. Around him are existing sand castles. Agreed he'd be making a mistake to ignore what's already been built. Where I disagree, I think the sand is not within a box, nor owned by anyone, and no castle is immune to rising and falling.

the owners of all the other castles have the king of the sand in their corner.

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Not sure if anyone else has posted this, but here is a link to a WH petition to allow Tesla to sell directly in all 50 states. It has over 100,000 signatures already:

allow Tesla Motors to sell directly to consumers in all 50 states. | We the People: Your Voice in Our Government

that is a waste of time for many reasons the largest being that the executive branch cannot interfere in this matter, as has been stated numerous time the only way for the feds to get involved is if there is a challenge to the commerce clause

 

[Krugerrand]

regardless of whomever on this forum buys my argument the facts are that in NJ elon and his sales plans are holding the short end of the stick and all the huffing and puffing that elon can muster up will change nothing

That's an interesting way of looking at it considering a) there's a whole lot of free PR going on and 99.9% of it is in Tesla's favor, and b) Tesla will still be selling cars to people who live in the state of NJ after April Fool's Day. Seems to me the stick Elon is holding isn't nearly as short as you'd like people to think it is. This was no game win for the other side, unless you're assuming that the game ends after the first field goal. From where I'm sitting, the game is still being played.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

.../ all the huffing and puffing that elon can muster up will change nothing

You do not know that.

 

[apvbguy]

That's an interesting way of looking at it considering a) there's a whole lot of free PR going on and 99.9% of it is in Tesla's favor, and b) Tesla will still be selling cars to people who live in the state of NJ after April Fool's Day. Seems to me the stick Elon is holding isn't nearly as short as you'd like people to think it is. This was no game win for the other side, unless you're assuming that the game ends after the first field goal. From where I'm sitting, the game is still being played.

as for who is winning the game, that is obvious, at this point the NJ car dealers have the biggest stack of chips in front of them. and tesla is playing blackjack while the dealers association and the nj government have been playing baccarat and splitting the winnings.
another analogy is that the way elon is currently playing would be likened to a football team's possession always starting on their own goal line, while it is conceivable for that team to be able achieve some success, it will by a very tough game for them.

for some reason some people think that my pointing out the reality of how deep the hole tesla is in right now in NJ is adversarial on my part, I assure you that it is not, however the pollyana views being expressed by some are just pointless expressions of love of the car.

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You do not know that.

it hasn't done too well up to now

 

[AlMc]

apvbguy: I understand that we disagree on the way Elon/TM is handling this (and other States) situation. So, exactly what would you do if you were Elon? Does he direct a lawsuit against any/all of the states blocking direct Tesla sales? Hire both lawyers and PR/lobbyist to start the ball rolloing at both the state and federal level immediately?

I would agree that eventually that might be necessary. However, since TM is supply constrained, and will be that way for at least another two years, I feel that by letting consumers, Tesla owners, and the media shed light on this situation of 'David vs. Goliath' (where Goliath is the hated auto dealership/politicians receiving contributions from these dealerships) is an excellent way to proceed at this juncture. If enough light/heat is shed I would hope that we might see the feds take up the cause (costing TM nothing) of changing the archaic MV laws or stautes.

 

[SteveG3]

the owners of all the other castles have the king of the sand in their corner.

apvbguy, while I cannot prove to you that no "king of the sand" exists, I do not believe there is such a "king of the sand." getting back to the point of all of this, from Elon's actions, I infer he also does not believe there is such a "king of the sand."

fwiw, I think it's good to get to the underlying different ways we are looking at this. I enjoy, rather than find it disagreeable to hear your differing underlying viewpoint... so thanks for spelling it out.

 

[Krugerrand]

as for who is winning the game, that is obvious, at this point the NJ car dealers have the biggest stack of chips in front of them.

It does not matter who's winning the game after the first minute, first period, first quarter, or even who's winning at half time. As someone who's watched some of the most stacked teams in history at various levels of sport get their lunch handed to them on a silver platter it's not wise at this point to be touting victory.

... it will by a very tough game for them.

I don't recall anyone ever saying it wouldn't be tough, including Tesla. In fact, Elon Musk has gone on record as having said he felt a Tesla failure was a likely outcome.

for some reason some people think that my pointing out the reality of how deep the hole tesla is in right now in NJ is adversarial on my part, I assure you that it is not, however the pollyana views being expressed by some are just pointless expressions of love of the car.

Others pointing out to you that it's not over until the fat lady sings (and she's not even opened her mouth to date) is in fact a statement of reality and not some Pollyanna view. That expression of love for the car that you claim is pointless has been used to get politicians to change their minds.

it hasn't done too well up to now

That's a matter of opinion. I'd say Elon's vocalization have been quite powerful, just ask a certain NY Times journalist.

 

[apvbguy]

apvbguy, while I cannot prove to you that no "king of the sand" exists, I do not believe there is such a "king of the sand." getting back to the point of all of this, from Elon's actions, I infer he also does not believe there is such a "king of the sand."

which goes back to all the fan boys claiming that this is just elon being elon and my saying that his way will not pass muster in NJ. I don't know where you're from and I am not going to get into my resume just let is suffice to say I've travelled a vey similar path that tesla is on now, there are many forks in the road and sometimes you need a good navigator to help you arrive at the finish line. being the best driver in the world means little if you can't understand the map of the route needed to be taken.

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since TM is supply constrained, and will be that way for at least another two years, I feel that by letting consumers,

this issue has little to do with the supply of the product, it is all about who can sell the product, what YOU feel has very little relevance to the way laws in NJ are being interpreted and how they will be enforced.

 

[qwk]

as for who is winning the game, that is obvious, at this point the NJ car dealers have the biggest stack of chips in front of them. and tesla is playing blackjack while the dealers association and the nj government have been playing baccarat and splitting the winnings.
another analogy is that the way elon is currently playing would be likened to a football team's possession always starting on their own goal line, while it is conceivable for that team to be able achieve some success, it will by a very tough game for them.

for some reason some people think that my pointing out the reality of how deep the hole tesla is in right now in NJ is adversarial on my part, I assure you that it is not, however the pollyana views being expressed by some are just pointless expressions of love of the car.

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it hasn't done too well up to now

Umm, people want what they can't have, and making it "illegal" makes the product that much more attractive. Can you show me any product that has been banned not sell out instantly and become very sought after?

Yeah some people will not buy the product because it's more difficult to do so, but I'll bet that there are more that do buy it because of the "banned" stigma.

 

[apvbguy]

That's a matter of opinion. I'd say Elon's vocalization have been quite powerful, just ask a certain NY Times journalist.

you just refuse to understand that the facts right now are that the powers in NJ have all the high cards. I won't disagree that elon could by a strong hand but short of getting the legislature to change the laws in NJ elon is in for a very long and protracted battle to effect any changes in the current status quo.

 

[AlMc]

which goes back to all the fan boys claiming that this is just elon being elon and my saying that his way will not pass muster in NJ. I don't know where you're from and I am not going to get into my resume just let is suffice to say I've travelled a vey similar path that tesla is on now, there are many forks in the road and sometimes you need a good navigator to help you arrive at the finish line. being the best driver in the world means little if you can't understand the map of the route needed to be taken.

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since TM is supply constrained, and will be that way for at least another two years, I feel that by letting consumers,

this issue has little to do with the supply of the product, it is all about who can sell the product, what YOU feel has very little relevance to the way laws in NJ are being interpreted and how they will be enforced.

I accept the way I feel has little to do with challenging NJ...or texas/Arizona..laws but if a company is supply constrained (years) and appears to have consumers and media on it's 'side' on an issue would it not be more logical to see where that path takes you in the short run (months)?

What would your specific plan of attack be going forward?

 

[apvbguy]

Umm, people want what they can't have, and making it "illegal" makes the product that much more attractive. Can you show me any product that has been banned not sell out instantly and become very sought after?

Yeah some people will not buy the product because it's more difficult to do so, but I'll bet that there are more that do buy it because of the "banned" stigma.

Teslas are not banned in NJ
they are not illegal to own in NJ
the only thing that is banned is DIRECT SALES by Tesla to the public.

 

[Krugerrand]

which goes back to all the fan boys

It would help if you stopped being derogatory towards others. And don't try and claim you're not being insulting and only making an observation.

...it is all about who can sell the product, what YOU feel has very little relevance to the way laws in NJ are being interpreted and how they will be enforced.

And truth be told, Tesla will still sell cars to residents of NJ, so there is no victory by way of NJ law. They haven't stopped Tesla and evidence seems to be pointing in the direction that they've helped Tesla by raising awareness of the brand, raising awareness of contradictory political views (and execution), and raising the ire of the common man.

 

[Causalien]

Tesla fight reminds me of AMD vs Intel when AMD came out with a CPU better than Intel.

Camp Intel is trying to stall camp AMD as much as possible so that camp AMD does not own a huge market share before camp Intel can innovate a better alternative. The only difference is that camp Intel consists of a mixture of automakers, dealerships and big oil.

We know how that fight ended between Intel and AMD and we know exactly what not to do. AMD couldn't keep up with innovation and its CEO basically constantly leaked secret information to a female analysts in an attempt to impress her, who in turn leaked that to the rest of the competitors. The merger with ATI, I am not sure if that was a desperate attempt at covering up problems or not, but the merger probably insured that AMD will no longer be able to compete with Intel, but also give them a way to not face an ultimatum of "do or die". Least of their problem is their foundry couldn't turn up enough good parts for the high end cpus that are in demand.

 

[SteveG3]

which goes back to all the fan boys claiming that this is just elon being elon and my saying that his way will not pass muster in NJ. I don't know where you're from and I am not going to get into my resume just let is suffice to say I've travelled a vey similar path that tesla is on now, there are many forks in the road and sometimes you need a good navigator to help you arrive at the finish line. being the best driver in the world means little if you can't understand the map of the route needed to be taken.

clearly seeing things differently than you do is not by definition "pollyanish" or "fan boyism."

as I stated before, I do not think Elon can ignore that there are existing castles built in the sand and just treat those other castles as if they were loose sand he is free to take to build his own castle. yes, he needs to navigate the reality that is not laid out by his design. yes, there are some very large castles there that can cause Tesla problems with this dealership issue and other issues to come. I have no doubt they will continue to try to... but I think these other builders of older castles are gravely mistaken if they think they own the sand and thus "own and control" whether Elon succeeds or not in building his castle.

so while Elon would be unwise to think he has free reign with all the sand, I do not believe there is a "King of the sand" as you suggested there is, and I so I do not believe Elon, or any of us for that matter, are fated to a life of "kissing the ring on the hand of the "King of the sand.""

 

[Krugerrand]

you just refuse to understand that the facts right now are that the powers in NJ have all the high cards.

And you refuse to understand four deuces beats three face cards. :wink:

I won't disagree that elon could by a strong hand but short of getting the legislature to change the laws in NJ elon is in for a very long and protracted battle to effect any changes in the current status quo.

You don't think he's not aware of what he's up against? Please. There's not a person on earth with more understanding of the risks and obstacles Tesla has yet to face than Elon Musk.