Tesla semi is ill conceived...

[cwerdna]

This ex-trucker has some questions about the Tesla Semi

I was going to post this but you beat me to the punch. It made some interest points but since I've never driven anything even close to as large as a semi, I can't really comment on its validity, esp. its assertions about various Tesla semi flaws.

 

[eye.surgeon]

Given Tesla's semi will be extremely production limited, why not focus on the 3% of the market, the so-called mega-carriers. No point in targeting the entire market when you only have capacity to service a tiny fraction of it. Seems like good business sense that they've chosen their target market, they probably already have enough pre-orders to book the factory for first 2-3 years of production anyways.

To me the biggest safety hazard I see with these big rigs is the 5 minutes they take to get up to the prevailing speed, and driving 30 MPH slower than prevailing speed up every grade. That's a hazard to me and my family and everyone else sharing the road with them and I look forward to the day that isn't the case.

 

[jr4488]

I hope your comment about ten tons on the steer axle is a misprint, six ton is maximum in North America, even with wide base tires you can just barely achieve ten tons with special permits and permanently mounted equipment. No highway truck axles and tires are rated for that kind of weight.

I'm new to the forum and I don't know how to edit out the mistake in my post! It should be six tons.

I've been in a jackknife situation several times and was always able to recover. It's usually in Wyoming on I-80, late a night, below zero, strong crosswind, steep downhill grade, light trailer, black ice, no road salt and poor visibility.

Sure wish I had been able to reach over and engage Tesla's AP...

jack

 

[cwerdna]

Wasn't I working with Qualcomm about 30 years on their GPS/datastream telemetry system? Back then the dome was 14" in diameter and 9 inches tall.

Not sure that's a new idea.

Omnitracs? I remember being at an interview at Qualcomm over 20 years ago where they took described Omnitracs to us, showed us the terminal in the truck, what was under the dome and showed us the operations center. Every line that would flash by on one of the monitors was a message and thus $ for Qualcomm. Before then, I had no idea why so many big rigs on interstate had these white dome mounted on the cab.

Looks just like Qualcomm Omnitracs System - Mexico Trucker Online back then.

Interestingly, they spun off the business in 2013: Qualcomm Finalizes Sale of Omnitracs, Inc. to Vista Equity Partners | Qualcomm.

 

[Farmertom]

To me the biggest safety hazard I see with these big rigs is the 5 minutes they take to get up to the prevailing speed, and driving 30 MPH slower than prevailing speed up every grade. That's a hazard to me and my family and everyone else sharing the road with them and I look forward to the day that isn't the case.

You need to watch where your going

In Germany on the autobahn some places cars have no speed limit whereas trucks are limited to 80km/hr. We almost rear ended a truck that abruptly pulled out to pass another at a 170km/hr, my father in law was driving, first time I experienced car ABS on pavement, It felt like it would shake to pieces.

Is the speed limit for trucks in California still fifteen miles per hour slower than cars? For me it was the scariest state to drive truck in as it seemed every vehicle was going to rearend my truck before veering over at the last moment. I bumped up to 65mph and it was much better.

The world needs more relaxed drivers.

 

[T34ME]

I'm all for saving the environment. But the trucking industry is in desperate need of a safety revolution first.

A safety revolution I would like to see is truck drivers slowing down. It is quite common to see trucks traveling 10 to 15 mph faster than the posted truck speed limit here in California.

Why can't saving the environment and truck safety go hand in hand? Elon clearly talked about the improved safety capabilities of the new Semi, which I found impressive, without boring us non-truck drivers with all the minute details of what is included in the capabilities. I'm sure if you contacted the right people at Tesla, they could answer your questions better than some trucking neophytes on a forum, like I am.

 

[jr4488]

*cough*

The recent great recession was a result of financial industry dereguation that allowed a derivatives fueled credit bubble. Review your recent history to find out the political actors. Hint: they are the same actors rolling back the Obama era regulations, today.

Goldman Sachs Finally Admits it Defrauded Investors During the Financial Crisis

Just because there is no regulation against it, doesn't make it right to steal peoples homes. I guess we'll agree to disagree...

jack

 

[T34ME]

Is the speed limit for trucks in California still fifteen miles per hour slower than cars? For me it was the scariest state to drive truck in as it seemed every vehicle was going to rearend my truck before veering over at the last moment. I bumped up to 65mph and it was much better.

No, in most places the speed differential is 10 mph in California. How many times did a vehicle rearend you because you were going 55 mph? This is a poor excuse for driving 80,000 pounds at a speed exceeding the posted speed limit for trucks. What we need is more responsible truck drivers. And to pizz everyone off, automobile drivers should be responsible and drive the posted speed limit too.

 

[tomas]

Lee Iacocca revived Ford and later Chrysler by investing in non federally mandated safety equipment and designs that costs more money at the time. Tesla can easily do the same thing because they will me the only truck manufacturer with a low cost electrified drivetrain for a few years.

Under Obama, companies like Goldman Sachs destroyed $16 trillion dollars in the United States alone. He responded by bailing them out with our money and nobody ever went to jail. Then, he let the banks foreclose on our homes. But the real reason Trump got elected was because the democrats swindled the only person who would have beat trump, Bernie Sanders...

jack

How about we stick to trucks?

 

[mmd]

Trucks won't change that much by 2020, it's a very slow process and it appears nothing groundbreaking is in the works. Keeping the truck on the road will be the biggest safety improvement, 90% of truck wrecks are drivers running them off the road, Tesla will have safety cornered in the truck market if they fix that.

For starter, fuel efficiency will be better. For example, 2018 Cascadia will be ~8% better than 2016 Cascaia Evolution, and the current Evolution is already at > 10 mpg.
Then there are the autonomy and platooning capabilities.

Driving autonomously through Nevada | Daimler | Daimler

But what makes this vehicle so exceptional? After all, Daimler unveiled the first autonomously driving truck around one year before: the Mercedes-Benz Future Truck 2025. The answer: whereas Mercedes-Benz's concept vehicle is initially confined to driving on closed-off areas, the Inspiration Truck is already approved for use on public roads. It is based on the Freightliner Cascadia Evolution series production model, thousands of which can be seen on US roads. And it is approved for autonomous driving on public highways in Nevada.

Nice bedroom + lounge. in Cascadia 2018!

 

[jr4488]

You need to watch where your going

Is the speed limit for trucks in California still fifteen miles per hour slower than cars? For me it was the scariest state to drive truck in as it seemed every vehicle was going to rearend my truck before veering over at the last moment. I bumped up to 65mph and it was much better.

The speed limit differential of 15 mph on interstate highways in California is what helps to make it the second deadliest state for truckers. Three years ago, I got a ticket for 61 in a 55 outside of Barstow. It was $400 for the ticket and $4,000 in increased insurance premiums.

Now, I run in 12th gear at 57 mph in California and hold up traffic on the freeway like all the other trucks. Every few weeks, a four-wheeler gets angry with me holding up traffic and teaches me a lesson with a brake check off my front bumper.

I think the Tesla semi may be able to reduce accidents by maintaining a more even speed. If it can do 65 mph up hills at full gross as advertised and then go 65 mph down the backside, that would be a real plus...

jack

 

[scottf200]

Can you explain some of your listed items for those of us who have not driven tractor-trailer rigs?

- Jackknifes - what causes them? I have assumed that a heavy trailer pushes the 5th wheel to one side or the other when its brakes are not able to slow it as fast as the tractor. I'm guessing that there must be several causes that you could explain to us.
- "…cruise control that can switch between maintaining a set speed or maintaining a set tension on the tires." By "tension" do you mean torque applied to the axles; traction force against the road; what?
- Mixer for trailer brakes. What would that do? are you talking about balancing braking effort between trailer and tractor?
- …trailer loses tracking with the tractor" First indication of jackknife?
- "T" handle for trailer brakes.

I meant to quote the OP and his comments about jackknife. I have not driven a tractor-trailer rig but only two axle camper trailers with electric brakes. I have experienced trailer sway and there is nothing like seeing a trailing in your side mirrors going back and forth. As the OP pointed out, you can manually hit the trailer brakes and accelerate. This is what I did to get out of the situation.

The Tesla Model X specs indicate they have some trailer anti-sway software system. I wonder how much new trailer pulling software and testing will be done with the Tesla semi. Certainly they have independent traction control on the semi to handle weather slippage.

As well they could detect if the trailer was pushing the truck (on flat ground) and adjust the trailer braking automatically! Heck if you have a dedicated purchaser (Walmart) they may end up with custom trailers with electronic brakes and tire speed sensors on the each trailer wheel. This is a software and testing problem then.

...
There is no question this truck is heavy, you can see it in the video and if they expect to run it in inclement weather it is going to get much heavier with that enclosed bottom. That bottom also appears to be a combination of .375 and maybe .625 plate? It must be part of the structure. Those axles are heavy, there is allot going on in there, 2x motors and gearboxes coupled to the rear axles. A ton heavier than conventional drive axles isn't a long shot. Combine that with what appears to be 3x12x.375 tubing for the rear frame and this thing is a brick...

It has air suspension and air brakes and a differential on each axle traction control and ABS is going to be no different than any other truck, slow and clumsy.

You may really like this video of more semi truck hardware via this post Kman's Tesla Videos

 

[Big Earl]

Problem is, Freightliner offered a cheap truck, not a particularly good one, go to a truck stop and ask. Jerome may know the business end of producing trucks but he either is not in tune with the actual design or Elon gave him very limited control on the design of this unit.

There is no question this truck is heavy, you can see it in the video and if they expect to run it in inclement weather it is going to get much heavier with that enclosed bottom. That bottom also appears to be a combination of .375 and maybe .625 plate? It must be part of the structure. Those axles are heavy, there is allot going on in there, 2x motors and gearboxes coupled to the rear axles. A ton heavier than conventional drive axles isn't a long shot. Combine that with what appears to be 3x12x.375 tubing for the rear frame and this thing is a brick...

It has air suspension and air brakes and a differential on each axle traction control and ABS is going to be no different than any other truck, slow and clumsy.

The Tesla semi has 4 motors - one on each rear wheel. This allows torque vectoring and independent control of each of the four rear wheels. This should provide superior control in slippery conditions.

 

[EVSteve]

I'm new to the forum and I don't know how to edit out the mistake in my post! It should be six tons.

I've been in a jackknife situation several times and was always able to recover. It's usually in Wyoming on I-80, late a night, below zero, strong crosswind, steep downhill grade, light trailer, black ice, no road salt and poor visibility.

Sure wish I had been able to reach over and engage Tesla's AP...

jack

As a trucker myself you should've been parked in those conditions. Saving a jack-knife isn't something to be proud of. It shows overconfidence and lack of planning. Between this and the statement regarding all of these systems you're asking for I question your judgement regarding when it's time to park it and wait for conditions to improve. Part of being a safe driver is knowing when it's not worth the risk. Installing all sorts of brake bias systems, trailer brakes' and trying to gain traction advantages by loading freight a particular way shows a desire to challenge the elements. When it's 80,000 lbs and the weight needs to be distributed legally no amount of forklift arrangement is going to provide an advantage. Park the truck, wait for conditions to improve.

 

[Farmertom]

No, in most places the speed differential is 10 mph in California. How many times did a vehicle rearend you because you were going 55 mph? This is a poor excuse for driving 80,000 pounds at a speed exceeding the posted speed limit for trucks. What we need is more responsible truck drivers. And to pizz everyone off, automobile drivers should be responsible and drive the posted speed limit too.

75mph is the speed limit for everyone in Utah, why is an 80,000lb truck safer there? At 10mph differential you still have cars trying to get around trucks constantly even with everyone driving the speed limit.

 

[Farmertom]

The Tesla semi has 4 motors - one on each rear wheel. This allows torque vectoring and independent control of each of the four rear wheels. This should provide superior control in slippery conditions.

Watch that video, the motors appear to be mounted front and rear of each axle, my guess is they are turning a common bull gear enclosing a differential to distribute power to both wheels. Thinking about it it is possible they are running two independent bull gears, one for each axle, you may be right...

The speed limit differential of 15 mph on interstate highways in California is what helps to make it the second deadliest state for truckers. Three years ago, I got a ticket for 61 in a 55 outside of Barstow. It was $400 for the ticket and $4,000 in increased insurance premiums.

Now, I run in 12th gear at 57 mph in California and hold up traffic on the freeway like all the other trucks. Every few weeks, a four-wheeler gets angry with me holding up traffic and teaches me a lesson with a brake check off my front bumper.

Funny how that works eh Jack? Well, one thing with Tesla self driving trucks we will see how they respond to these drivers...

I think the Tesla semi may be able to reduce accidents by maintaining a more even speed. If it can do 65 mph up hills at full gross as advertised and then go 65 mph down the backside, that would be a real plus...

jack

It'll help, but lighter traffic will still be cutting and swerving around truck.

 

[Farmertom]

As a trucker myself you should've been parked in those conditions. Saving a jack-knife isn't something to be proud of. It shows overconfidence and lack of planning. Between this and the statement regarding all of these systems you're asking for I question your judgement regarding when it's time to park it and wait for conditions to improve. Part of being a safe driver is knowing when it's not worth the risk. Installing all sorts of brake bias systems, trailer brakes' and trying to gain traction advantages by loading freight a particular way shows a desire to challenge the elements. When it's 80,000 lbs and the weight needs to be distributed legally no amount of forklift arrangement is going to provide an advantage. Park the truck, wait for conditions to improve.

Common sense is a very important part of driving. I wonder how self driving vehicles will handle these situations? Will there be "dead" zones in inclement weather where the vehicle will have to be manually operated for instance?

 

[Farmertom]

I meant to quote the OP and his comments about jackknife. I have not driven a tractor-trailer rig but only two axle camper trailers with electric brakes. I have experienced trailer sway and there is nothing like seeing a trailing in your side mirrors going back and forth. As the OP pointed out, you can manually hit the trailer brakes and accelerate. This is what I did to get out of the situation.

The Tesla Model X specs indicate they have some trailer anti-sway software system. I wonder how much new trailer pulling software and testing will be done with the Tesla semi. Certainly they have independent traction control on the semi to handle weather slippage.

As well they could detect if the trailer was pushing the truck (on flat ground) and adjust the trailer braking automatically! Heck if you have a dedicated purchaser (Walmart) they may end up with custom trailers with electronic brakes and tire speed sensors on the each trailer wheel. This is a software and testing problem then.

Sway is really a non issue with trucks, mainly because of the hinge point being located center of the drive axles. I built trucks with hitches for tag trailers for the oil patch and there is a whole set of criteria regarding wheelbase and distance from center of drive axles to hinge point that have to met. It is really interesting non of this criteria pertains to cars and light trucks.

You may really like this video of more semi truck hardware via this post Kman's Tesla Videos

I saw that, it's interesting the trailer it's hooked to is just an enclosed gooseneck with a kingpin with no upper plate, it cannot carry a load. Did they do that to give it the image it's a loaded truck with incredible performance when they drive it from show to show? A regular truck has pretty impressive performance with a trailer like that as well...

Not much ground clearance, could be an issue when we haul cows and feed to the ranches

I wonder why the truck doesn't have super singles, lighter weight and improved performance.

That wire loom they are using is notorious for rubbing through the wire coating in applications where there is lots of vibration and movement, that could be an issue after a few thousand miles.

 

[avoigt]

Very much interesting Podcast from an owner of a truck company in Canada who did an order for the Semi.

Blubrry PowerPress Player

 

[bak_phy]

Goldman Sachs Finally Admits it Defrauded Investors During the Financial Crisis

Just because there is no regulation against it, doesn't make it right to steal peoples homes. I guess we'll agree to disagree...

jack

You do realize that Bush Jr was president during that entire time period and that the republicans controlled both houses for most of it, right??