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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Did anyone see this Video about everyDayRobot at Google on general AI running robotic tasks from free language input:


at 8:10 you can see current usecases they are working on - it gives a glimpse into how complex even the simplest tasks are in the real world outside of predetermined, stable surroundings.

If Tesla presents anything close to this on AI Day I'd be shocked.
 
Well, even if you are the one making the assertion, there has to be some source for it: access to source code, conjecture, a Tesla employee, you wrote it, little birdies, etc...

So I'm trying to determine how much credence to give claims... You worked at Tesla but some time ago?
I wrote the specs for some of the code; how's that? And yes it was awhile ago, but they are still using it in some form or fashion as I can still gleen/groc the output behavior.
 
Good argument. The primary question is whether there will be actual financial losses during that process, or just reduction in transaction prices, i.e. profit on resale. That remains to be seen. I suspect this transition will be less abrupt globally, so transaction prices might now suffer as much as they did with the aircraft cases.
The most optimistic views suggest there will be still ice sales continuing at ~50% of present levels into the 2030's. That does not portend massive drops in resale values.
Resale values of ICE vehicles depends on demand. So we can say the value of those vehicles depends on the cost/availability of new EVs, new ICE vehicles, and used EVs.

If we get to anything close to the cost reductions that some think EVs will see this decade, why will people pay good money for used ICE vehicles if cheap EVs are available or if some makers are desperately pumping out cheap ICE while they can?
 
Welp so much for that theory about growth/risk leading the way. They’re taking it on the chin today. As for macros, I’m to thinking they get driven down to the June lows before the Fed meeting next week
~7% Nasdaq and ~5.5% SP500 from right here in 2 trading days would be a very large move after a week of large moves. Possible, just seems unlikely.

Here's an interesting point of reference. Tesla is ~299 today and Nasdaq is ~11,380. The last time the Nasdaq was around this level was July 18th. On July 18th, Tesla closed at 240.55 (split adjusted obviously). Tesla is up ~25% while the Nasdaq is roughly flat. If you extend earlier in July, you have a similar level Nasdaq with Tesla at 230. Pretty massive relative strength over the last couple months.
 
Fossil Fuel addicts woes as California will not only eliminate gas vehicles but also diesel. Tesla Semi may need to adjust production to meet demands. Giga Texas and Giga Fremont and Giga Sparks might fill these needs. So much is happening with TE as well it is hard to keep track. I hope Fed X gets Tesla Semis to help out their bottom line.
Other news BS was about Giga Brandenburg shipping battery production to the US. The FUD is remarkable but nice if one is buying chairs.

 
My take would be that we as drivers are really way overconfident when driving up to the top of a hill - we expect all to be rosy, because otherwise there would have been signs warning about a dangerous turn right after the top. In reality we really are driving blind, there could be a cow lying right in the middle of the road, so it makes sense to slow down and be prepared for anything.

But statistically nothing happens - takes a bit of a leap of faith or a lot of driving experience.

So I think this phantom braking near the top of hills is a good thing. It's a perfect trap too for TSLAQ's ... too easy to create prepared accidents.

IF the driver is so confident in statistics, let HIM take the responsibility of keeping up the speed.
Slowing down, yes. But not phantom braking. Braking should only be used when the car must be stopped rather quickly!
 
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FDX is trading today where it was back in October...



...2014.

So what does this have to do with TSLA today? Zippo.
 
This is one of the exceedingly rare times when I disagree with an Elon Musk pronouncement.
First, 'residual value' has nothing to do with 'resale value'. Residual value is a contractual termination value in a lease or 'baloon payment' loan. In the contract the amortization si for the total contract value less the 'residual value'. Resale value is what the collateral sells for at the end of the contract.

The only comparable event in recent decades was the replacement of piston aircraft by turboprops first, then by turbojets. The old pistons did have values plummet, but they were largely recycled to less developed areas, so did not lose anything close to all their value. There is data existing on that transition, mostly within ancient archives of aircraft financiers and manufacturers. That was not the financial catastrophe that would ahem been expected.

So, too, there is a deeply 'first world bias' in this assumption. Much of the world population lives in poor conditions that have no reliable electrical supply at all. Despite they Chinese ability to put BEV charging at the Mount Everest Base Camp, most of Africa, South America, and Asia will absorb used ICE for decades to come.

I really wish this were not so. However, many regions largely remain as they were before the industrial revolution, often with a handful of modern accoutrements but nothing much more. Thus, the BEV adopters will not junk their ICE, they'll just export the pollutants to poor people. It will be as it has ever been.

Again, I wish it were not so.

Aircraft are scarce and always have been. An unremarkable, uncollectible 40 year old Cessna 152s with massive airtime sell for $70,000. That's for a 2 seater barely capable of moving 2 skinny guys at 90 MPH.

There are several orders of magnitude more ICE vehicles then there were ever piston aircraft. Comparing the 2 is just ridiculous.

Third world countries are not going to prop up the resale value of used ICE vehicles.
 
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Prime Example of Correlation, not Causation: (Rumor was Tesla moving equipment out of Berlin, and I took that rumor as pressure on Germany to expand, ha!) Seems it's ramping both, while Germany's battery plant sounds ahead of schedule. Ba-Da-Boom!

"According to a report by German publication rbb24, Tesla confirmed to some of its partners in the Grünheide region on Friday that they have no intention of slowing down their plans for battery production at Giga Berlin.

In fact, Tesla said the German battery plant will progress faster than originally planned.

At the same time, Tesla said it will also speed up its plans for battery production at Giga Texas to take advantage of the tax credits, somewhat confirming the previous reports.

 
Of the places without reliable electricity supply, how many have reliable gasoline supply? Also, don’t gas pumps run on electricity? And even if the ICEVs *do* get exported to places like that due to collapsing demand in OECD countries, wouldn’t the ICEV resale prices be correspondingly lower since the customers can’t afford much?

I had thought in areas with that much poverty most transportation is done on foot, or riding an animal or bicycle.


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Good questions. In countries I personally know all have had gasoline suppliers and motor vehicles, although most have had camels, horses, donkeys and sometimes other beasts of burden. Even in places such as Yemen, Nepal and Mongolia there are plentiful motor vehicles. No matter how remote there are fossil fuel distribution and access, almost always even including avgas and aviation kerosine. The quality of those fuels is often poor but they always make it somehow. In such areas there sometimes is electricity too, nearly always powered by diesel fuel. One would think they'd use water, if they had it or solar. Those happen too, but less frequently.

Until you visit these horribly poor and uneducated places you'll wonder how they get gasoline, diesel fuel and aviation fuel. They always do...how is another topic entirely. The bugger question is how they get food.

PS You might never have experienced culture shock like you'd do if you were in an ancient gasoline car, masquerading as a taxi, and hearing Steppenwolf Monster from a portable boombox. That happened to me in late 1970's Yemen in an area that had no electricity. Toyota pickup trucks were common, even sometimes carrying camels. Of course the driver was chewing a huge cud of qat.
 
Ah, my bad! Still pretty goofy though.

Just for scale, Toyota reported U.S. sales of 2,027,786 vehicles in 2021. That was up 10.4% over 2020. So 3M in the USA by 2030 would be excellent.

Still, I think they are underestimating U.S. sales at just 3.0 Million. With Fremont already at 700K/yr, that would mean Giga Texas capped at around 2.5M/yr and no other factories build in N. America this decade.

Unlikely, IMO. ;)

Cheers to the Longs!
 
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ICE lasts as long as their support. It's like an opposite S curve in which in the beginning the transition is slow but there will be a point in which suppliers go bankrupt or pivot to EV parts as everyone loses economy of scale to support ICE. This will happen very quickly when it starts, which means used ICE value has low residual value due to them being paperweight at any given second, or parts become rare and expensive to the point of beyond repair.

It's like the beginning of the S curve for Tesla in which they "needed parts that doesn't exist". The other end of the upside down S curve for ICE.
If you want to know where ICE prices end up, you have to figure out what operating costs will look like long term. My feeling is as demand for gas drops, the operating costs of all of that infrastructure is spread across fewer and few gallons of gas. It won't happen over night, but even though demand will be dropping, economies of scale will be fading and gas prices will be going up.

High gas prices puts downwards pressure on the resale value of ICE vehicles as their operating costs increase. Operating costs for EVs is already much lower than ICE, if gas prices continue up, the disparity is only going to increase.
 
Just for scale, Toyota reported U.S. sales of 2,027,786 vehicles in 2021. That was up 10.4% over 2020. So 3M in the USA by 2030 would be excellent.

Still, I think they are underestimating U.S. sales at just 3.0 Million. With Fremont already at 700K/yr, that would mean Giga Texas capped at around 3M/yr and no other factories build in N. America this decade.

Unlikely, IMO. ;)

Cheers to the Longs!

I agree…it’s underestimating but it’s a much more respectful estimate than I gave credit for.

I was eager beaver on dumping on MS/AJ. AJ, I apologize and take it back.
 
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