Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[SwedishAdvocate]

Bit of a niche topic. Doubt anyone has heard about it here but you never know.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718261312843645010

Some additional context:

The author of that article is the President of Tesla Club Sweden.

Source in Swedish:

Kontakta Oss – Tesla Club Sweden

teslaclubsweden.se

The original article in Swedish at Tesla Club Sweden's website:

Strejken som inte fanns – Tesla Club Sweden

teslaclubsweden.se

And that was one shop. There are other reports that another shop in Stockholm held a 'cleaning day', and also that basically everyone where on strike in Gothenburg and Umeå.

So... The President of Tesla Club Sweden went to one shop in Stockholm and talked to the workers. Now put yourself in the workers shoes. Would you express criticism towards your employer while at work in that employer's shop? And would you do so while being interviewed by the President of Tesla Club Sweden during a conflict between the union and the employer?...

 

[2daMoon]

Permit called it GA 2 and 3 expansion, but moving offices from the building proper would also allow expansion.
https://abc.austintexas.gov/public-...errsn=12968668&t_selected_propertyrsn=5940796

The report of the initial plan submission mentioning the admin aspect for the extension came long before the more recent permits were reported.

Though it does seem quite unusual for Tesla to change their mind about how a space will be used, ha ha. (do I really need to put a /s here?)

 

[Krugerrand]

Opining on Swedish union issues when one knows nothing at all about the specifics is a classically incompetent thing do. The word in English for such things is 'prejudice'.

What are you even talking about? Nobody has been doing what you suggest.

We’ve all been asking for DETAILS and SPECIFICS - how exactly are Tesla employees being treated poorly and what exactly is in this collective agreement that will fix that, of which we’ve gotten zilch.

The statement by Tesla and interview of the Swedish Tesla employee were the most enlightening.

Unless we’ve missed something in all these media linked articles? Do tell. What are the specifics? What has Tesla done wrong by its employees in Sweden? What verbiage in the collective agreement fixes that? What was the content of previous talks with Tesla? What content is the union insisting on that Tesla is refusing to agree to? When did employees have the opportunity to vote on the union’s collective agreement verbiage and what was the percentage if Swedish Tesla employees in favor?

 

[Krugerrand]

So... The President of Tesla Club Sweden went to one shop in Stockholm and talked to the workers. Now put yourself in the workers shoes. Would you express criticism towards your employer while at work in that employer's shop? And would you do so while being interviewed by the President of Tesla Club Sweden during a conflict between the union and the employer?...

What I would do or what you would do is not relevant, and you implying that the employee who spoke is saying what he thinks he should vs what he really thinks is well -

There are consequences for companies who punish employees because they don’t like what the employee said publicly. By the same token, there are sometimes rules about employees speaking on topics to media/publicly. We’ve no idea if any of that applies or will apply, so for now it’s best to simply take what the employee said at face value unless you have factual evidence to the contrary, not hypothetical shoes.

Additionally, it’s super easy for anyone to simply say ‘no comment’ if they feel they’re in a no win situation or don’t want to voice a thought.

 

[unk45]

What are you even talking about? Nobody has been doing what you suggest.

We’ve all been asking for DETAILS and SPECIFICS - how exactly are Tesla employees being treated poorly and what exactly is in this collective agreement that will fix that, of which we’ve gotten zilch.

The statement by Tesla and interview of the Swedish Tesla employee were the most enlightening.

Unless we’ve missed something in all these media linked articles? Do tell. What are the specifics? What has Tesla done wrong by its employees in Sweden? What verbiage in the collective agreement fixes that? What was the content of previous talks with Tesla? What content is the union insisting on that Tesla is refusing to agree to? When did employees have the opportunity to vote on the union’s collective agreement verbiage and what was the percentage if Swedish Tesla employees in favor?

Once in a while the cat becomes a trifle defensive. My comments related to a handful of posts reflecting ideological positions from particular locations that do not share conditions closely analogous to those in Sweden. The points relate to ideological polemics that interfere with objective reality.

...

There are consequences for companies who punish employees because they don’t like what the employee said publicly. ..

So you are an expert on Sweden public policy now? In any event such consequences are distinctly subject to jurisdiction, are they not? Our subject here is Tesla business practices in a locations with highly organized and societally accepted norms and laws. I am not an expert in any respect. I have worked on behalf of Swedish companies. I know enough to know my limitations. Hence I rather suspect @SwedishAdvocate knows much more than either of us. That last point does appear to suggest that there si a sense of deference to interlocutor perspective that might not be prevalent from a remote mountaintop.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Finally Toyota gets it!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718183655367942456

Are all these companies staffed by idiots? Does no one understand that EVs are currently more expensive to make than an exact equivalent ICE due to battery cost?

Teslas have minimalist interiors not because it’s a signature style, but because of cost savings. They realized early on that the EV drivetrain (and Supercharging network and connected car) is enough of draw that they can sell an econobox at a premium just because it had a rocketship EV drivetrain. The Model Y has a suspension that chiropractors love, yet outsells all else due instant torque.

EV dominance isn’t that hard. Here’s the secret sauce, and you didn’t have to pay me a $million consulting fee:

- aerodynamic profile to get better range (range is absolutely a purchasing decision)
- NACS compatibility (duh)
- connected car, which isn’t only a consumer feature, it is necessary to control warranty costs
- cost reduction everywhere else.

Manual shifting does not belong in this equation.

Unfortunately, it seems legacy auto has nerfed itself with its reliance on module suppliers for everything meaning they can’t do the connected car properly, and they can’t do things like Teslas extreme cooling integration which helps both performance and costs. Ironically legacy auto went to an extreme outsourced model to save on costs, but It resulted in lack of flexibility meaning they were completely exposed when a disruptor entered the market. SpaceX took over the rocket lift market for essentially the same reason.

Incidentally, while FSD isnt yet a reason why a lot of people buy Teslas, Elon has positioned Tesla to have that killer feature ready in the unlikely event that legacy auto gets their crap together and actually starts selling competitive EVs. And if legacy auto doesn’t do it, the Chinese might (and certainly will in China and Europe, although Chinese cars coming to the US will take many years). Elon is nothing if not a long term strategic thinker.

 

[AudubonB]

Recent posts suggest I remind people of the Swedish gentleman who loved his wife so much he almost told her.

And, since I am not Swedish:

Just sayin’

 

[navguy12]

Much to my despair, 99% of people I know seem to not care one bit about climate change, despite claiming to care about their kids.

Same here with the people I know in Canada.

 

[philw1776]

The Model Y has a suspension that chiropractors love, yet outsells all else due instant torque.

Great statement Both hilarious & accurate.

 

[SO16]

Just stopped by a Ford dealership in Greenville MI while driving through in my Model S. They have 6 MachEs on the lot. From 52k to 72k. For 75k with over 100 miles more range, I’d buy another model S. Not to mention the more comparable Model Y.

No wonder legacy EVs are not selling. But of course the media likes to leave off the qualifier of “LEGACY”.

Legacy has a LONG way to go to catch up to Tesla (unlikely never).

 

[aubreymcfato]

The right thing is to allow employees to own a part of the company at a market discount and as part of performance bonuses. At least in the US, that’s not possible with a union.

Do we have a final word on that. If I recall correctly Musk definitely thought it was like this (at the time of his famous tweets about the subject).
I seem to recall @Artful Dodger diving in? Maybe I am mistaken.

The right thing is to allow employees to choose to be in a union or not.

Yes.

In the US, the employees have said NO to a union more than once, yet the UAW persists with their slimy tactics. In Sweden, apparently the employees are also not interested in a union collective agreement as they ALL accepted a job at Tesla without a collective agreement ever being in place and not existing for a decade+. Additionally, an employee in Sweden already stated publicly he’s not in favor of a collective agreement. But the union threatens to prevent customers from getting cars fixed, and blockading ports so they can’t get their new cars. What even!? But still Tesla did right by the employees in Sweden by telling them business as usual for those not wanting to represent the union, and those that do are free to go blockade the ports.

There is zero evidence that Tesla isn’t doing right by employees and to suggest or imply otherwise by bringing up that other business, where others have a differing opinion than yours, is disingenuous.

I personally find disingenuous to believe that a worker (maybe young, maybe in a low-ranking position) gets a job like the old "homo oeconomicus", fully rational, fully informed and aware of all the consequences of his actions.
If there is now a window of opportunity because of a politics shift (generated by a economic shift caused by wars, inflation and the like) and some workers think they can get a better deal, they have the right to do so. It's not advanced calculus to understand that now people struggle more with wages that a few years ago were comfortable and now are not, this is happening worldwide.

I think the prejudice goes in both directions: there is zero evidence that Tesla is doing the best for its employees. At least some are discontent, and we know that for a fact. Now, we'll all have to wait for more information.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

...] The right thing is to allow employees to own a part of the company at a market discount and as part of performance bonuses. At least in the US, that’s not possible with a union. [...

Why wouldn't it be?...

There is no minimum pay mandated by law in Sweden. Instead employers and unions enter into Collective agreements. These Collective agreements outlines the base with regards to pay and 'other conditions'.

What's preventing Tesla (or any other company) to allow employees to own a part of the company at a market discount and as part of performance bonuses if Tesla have signed on to a Collective agreement?

Also: Tesla in this case is Tesla's Swedish subsidiary, not Tesla Inc.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Strejken hos Tesla - Ingen ställde upp

Löften om en strejk mot Tesla, organiserad av fackförbundet IF Metall, väckte oro bland företagets kunder.

www.borskollen.se

Google translate posted at reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/17ifml4

Article claims strike started Friday and not a single employee stood up to strike.

Has already been posted in the thread. More context here:

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

Bit of a niche topic. Doubt anyone has heard about it here but you never know. Some additional context: The author of that article is the President of Tesla Club Sweden. Source in Swedish: https://teslaclubsweden.se/om-oss/contact-us-page/ The original article in Swedish at Tesla Club...

teslamotorsclub.com

(at the top of this page...)

 

[madodel]

Finally Toyota gets it!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718183655367942456

Is Toyota Japanese for moron?

 

[AndrewZ]

Some interesting new stuff from Boston Dynamics on the robotics / AI / autonomy side for these closed-market days

 

[Cal1]

@SwedishAdvocate knows much more than either of us. That last point does appear to suggest that there si a sense of deference to interlocutor perspective that might not be prevalent from a remote mountaintop.

Thanks I'm so expanding my vocab! (had to go look up interlocutor)

 

[Krugerrand]

Once in a while the cat becomes a trifle defensive. My comments related to a handful of posts reflecting ideological positions from particular locations that do not share conditions closely analogous to those in Sweden. The points relate to ideological polemics that interfere with objective reality.

So you are an expert on Sweden public policy now? In any event such consequences are distinctly subject to jurisdiction, are they not? Our subject here is Tesla business practices in a locations with highly organized and societally accepted norms and laws. I am not an expert in any respect. I have worked on behalf of Swedish companies. I know enough to know my limitations. Hence I rather suspect @SwedishAdvocate knows much more than either of us. That last point does appear to suggest that there si a sense of deference to interlocutor perspective that might not be prevalent from a remote mountaintop.

I never said or suggested I was an expert on Swedish public policy and neither clearly is the Swedish poster posting on the topic. They specifically hinted at the employee lying because of who the employee was speaking to publicly without considering or offering information about ‘jurisdiction or company policies’ or even considering that the employee may not have been aware they were talking to the Swedish fan club member etc…. In return, I suggested they might not have all the information/considered everything before judging the employee dishonest. Nothing I said suggested it was fact and you know that.

Said poster has also not offered any specifics on the subject that I and others have been asking about. We’ve gotten some generalizations like the % of women and men that belong to the union, that Tesla has been ‘in talks for 10 or maybe 15 years’, but ‘hasn’t come to the table’, which is a straight up contradiction, which I asked for clarification and did not get.

None of the articles linked have provided any specifics about what the union wants from Tesla for employees, who to date have ACTED like they’re completely fine with how things have gone for the last 10 or maybe 15 years without a collective agreement by continuing to apply for and take positions at Tesla.

I know you’re not suggesting applicants haven’t known from the get go that Tesla had no signed collective agreement because that would be silly. Of course they’d know that given the high percentage of union participation in the country. Indeed, it might not be much of a leap to consider applicants considered that a good reason to work for Tesla.

If this was as big a deal as we’re being led to believe by the union and a handful of others, the most reasonable and logical action would be for Swedish people to not apply for jobs at Tesla and/or refuse positions and tell Tesla ‘I will not work for a company that does not have a signed collective agreement’. Without being able to hire people, Tesla would then decide to sign a collective agreement or pack up their toy box and leave the country.

Don’t try and make this some complicated, special, and epic specific societal issue. Straight up, it’s a union unioning, Tesla teslaing, and people being people. It doesn’t matter the color or design of the flag flown. At our core, we’re all the same. Including you telling me I’m doing something I’m not because you made some broad assumptions instead of asking me to clarify my words to eliminate any confusion or misunderstanding on your part; like I haven’t always been a redneck hillbilly living on a mountain in the middle of nowhere.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

...] Said poster has also not offered any specifics on the subject that I and others have been asking about. We’ve gotten some generalizations like the % of women and men that belong to the union, that Tesla has been ‘in talks for 10 or maybe 15 years’, but ‘hasn’t come to the table’, which is a straight up contradiction, which I asked for clarification and did not get. [...

Like you didn't get the gist of it(!)...

Ok then...

Here it is again then just for you...

It seems it's not 15 or 10 years. It seems to 'only' be six years. The union has been wanting to talk to Tesla about this for six(?) years. Tesla has basically just said no. And now here we are.

 

[M|S|M MYP]

Are all these companies staffed by idiots? Does no one understand that EVs are currently more expensive to make than an exact equivalent ICE due to battery cost?

Teslas have minimalist interiors not because it’s a signature style, but because of cost savings. They realized early on that the EV drivetrain (and Supercharging network and connected car) is enough of draw that they can sell an econobox at a premium just because it had a rocketship EV drivetrain. The Model Y has a suspension that chiropractors love, yet outsells all else due instant torque.

EV dominance isn’t that hard. Here’s the secret sauce, and you didn’t have to pay me a $million consulting fee:

- aerodynamic profile to get better range (range is absolutely a purchasing decision)
- NACS compatibility (duh)
- connected car, which isn’t only a consumer feature, it is necessary to control warranty costs
- cost reduction everywhere else.

Manual shifting does not belong in this equation.

Unfortunately, it seems legacy auto has nerfed itself with its reliance on module suppliers for everything meaning they can’t do the connected car properly, and they can’t do things like Teslas extreme cooling integration which helps both performance and costs. Ironically legacy auto went to an extreme outsourced model to save on costs, but It resulted in lack of flexibility meaning they were completely exposed when a disruptor entered the market. SpaceX took over the rocket lift market for essentially the same reason.

Incidentally, while FSD isnt yet a reason why a lot of people buy Teslas, Elon has positioned Tesla to have that killer feature ready in the unlikely event that legacy auto gets their crap together and actually starts selling competitive EVs. And if legacy auto doesn’t do it, the Chinese might (and certainly will in China and Europe, although Chinese cars coming to the US will take many years). Elon is nothing if not a long term strategic thinker.

Has it even been confirmed that the manual shifting is actually 'functional' or purely a gimmick to make a driver 'feel' like they are driving an ICE vehicle?

 

[Cosmacelf]

The market is currently pricing that the FOMC will start cutting rates in June 2024, but the chart below shows that the market is almost always wrong about what the Fed will do beyond the next FOMC meeting. Looking at the chart, it is remarkable how mean reverting the error is. When rates are low, the market is systematically pricing that the Fed will soon hike. When rates are high, the market is systematically pricing that the next move from the Fed is to cut. Maybe the Fed will cut rates next summer. Maybe not. For now, investors should be planning on rates staying higher for longer.

For Tesla, I think that eventually (like mid next year at the latest), people will get used to the new rates and life will go on as usual.