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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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It's tricky because there's not an observable pattern. What we've seen is:

1st week: Monday
2nd week: Monday & Tuesday
3rd week (this week): Tuesday so far

It's almost like he's trying to send another code with his choice of day for selling. However it's a bit more than 50% done now.
How do you figure that he is 50% done? He has 23,737,050 vested shares in the 2012 incentive, and he has only exercised 8,610,724 of them. (Or ~36% of them.)

Or he has exercised 4 of the 11 tranches of this option grant. So we have 7 more days of selling to exercise his 2012 vested options. (Assuming he executes them all this year.)

Remember, he set this plan in motion before the 10% poll.
 
100% of the float isn't traded daily.

900,000 shares compared to 27 million traded today is a more appropriate number to use for comparison.
Last Monday he also sold the same number of shares and volume was more or less the same as today (34M vs 36M). Yet, last Monday we closed flat vs -4% today.
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How do you figure that he is 50% done? He has 23,737,050 vested shares in the 2012 incentive, and he has only exercised 8,610,724 of them. (Or ~36% of them.)

Or he has exercised 4 of the 11 tranches of this option grant. So we have 7 more days of selling to exercise his 2012 vested options. (Assuming he executes them all this year.)

Remember, he set this plan in motion before the 10% poll.
He's 50% done with selling, assuming the 17M total share count is correct. In term of exercising, you are correct. @DaveT thinks it's 22.7M, not 23.7M, though.
 
Perfect! So % shorted has capitulated. Although these reports only address the shares shorted and not whatever activity may be going on in the option markets with various shorting strategies.
Hedge funds don’t measure their positions in number of shares, but in $ value. So no, there really has not been a capitulation. That said, if there ever is, the impact of unwinding won’t be anywhere near as noticeable.
 
100% of the float isn't traded daily.

900,000 shares compared to 27 million traded today is a more appropriate number to use for comparison.
Yet 900,000 shares isn’t going to cause the downward pressure like we saw today. That just doesn’t mathematically work even when you factor in for most of the float isn’t traded on a daily basis.

We saw pretty big selling volume yesterday with big dips and yet Elon didn’t sell. The 900,000 shares sold today is non material, likely only accounted for less than 1% of the move down today. And it’s even further discredited by the fact that we saw days where Elon was selling and the stock was up.
 
I guess I should have put the /s in my posts.

But the point is it is not "normal" behavior .

It is a heavily manipulated stock.

I think this kind of volatility is due to a lot of traders trading very few shares. As an increasing number of funds and individuals stake out a position in TSLA for the long-term, there are fewer and fewer shares that are actually trading hands, they are just doing it more rapidly, hence the volatility. Buy, buy, buy followed by sell, sell, sell. The number of TSLA traders is likely increasing with the increasing holders. Traders like a stock that makes big moves quickly so they can get in and get out. They also like a stock on the rise. Of course, Elon's shares coming into the market is increasing the number of shares available for trading somewhat but I think the overall trend is for people to realize Tesla is a great long-term opportunity and people that previously traded it on valuation are increasingly putting it aside and holding it for the long-term.

Volatility is natural in markets, sometimes its higher and sometimes it's lower, the market will decide which it is. Even if you are a long term buy and hold investor volatility is a good thing because it provides opportunity for better entry or exit points (depending upon whether you are building a position or selling one off). If you are just holding, then it matters not even a little bit. People put too much importance on the market price and especially the fluctuations. While one can claim the market price is important because it's the best and only true measure of what a stock or company is worth, that's only as true as it is. What I mean by that is, obviously, the value of a company doesn't wildly fluctuate through the days and weeks like the share price is doing, no, the share price is always trying to find the true value. But it is distorted by so many factors that have nothing to do with the true value of the company and the shares. So that is all noise of the market trying to find the "true" value and is best ignored by a long-term holder.

A great investor has conviction in their own estimation of future value and don't constantly look to the market for confirmation. Sure, it's always nice when the market appears to confirm your estimation but that's all it ever is (an appearance of confirmation). Since the market can be fickle, it can change its mind too. That's why it's always best to focus on the company, their current performance and your estimation of their future performance, not the share price. Because the share price will take care of itself and you have no control over it.

All that said, I think the current volatility, based on the factors in my first paragraph (more traders trading fewer shares more rapidly) will lead to some massive moves to the upside in the near future. Because I think there is HUGE demand for long-term shares that will be filled on any moves lower and so the volatility will cause shares to trend higher. Much higher if the volatility continues. This is really just noise but it will have the effect of valuing more of TSLA's future growth sooner. Tesla has been 'overvalued' by traditional metrics since they went public (and rightly so). The only exception, by my analysis, was in 2019. We have always suspected that as the market learns more about what makes Tesla tick, this effect will become more pronounced. Tesla is stock that will be wildly 'overvalued' by traditional metrics as far as the eye can see (and again, rightly so).

People want a piece of a company that has nearly unlimited growth potential and a very high likelihood of taking good advantage of that potential. And that is exactly what the market is starting to see. The volatility is a natural result of traders and the rest of the market trying to figure out just how much confidence the market has in Tesla's future growth. And it really is noise if you are a long-term investor. The share price doesn't matter unless you are the kind of investor that thinks Tesla will not have a bright future, that things are great right now but that innovation will dry up, competition will become fierce and profit margins will be squeezed by having to compete with superior manufacturers that can produce at a lower cost. If that is you, then you should take advantage of this volatility by selling during or shortly after one of these bull peaks. But I see a strong future for Tesla so I'm not about to exit under $2400 this year and my number will go up next year, and the year after that, as long as I think Tesla continues to have great long-term potential. The market price is almost meaningless unless it becomes what I would consider nearly fully valued looking out a handful of years. And that's probably not going to happen because it would mean the market is more bullish than I am.

$500 more or less per share is inconsequential unless you are building a position, liquidating a position or fancy yourself a trader. Because no one can accurately predict where the price will be tomorrow, next week or next month. It's up to the market.
 
@FactChecking puts the 10% drop today down to shorts causing a gamma squeeze through Put buying. We've seen this pattern before in recent weeks (eg Tuesday 9th Nov) where Elon's selling causes downwards pressure that gets accelerated by Shorts/HFT causing MM's to delta hedge their puts.


 
Hedge funds don’t measure their positions in number of shares, but in $ value. So no, there really has not been a capitulation. That said, if there ever is, the impact of unwinding won’t be anywhere near as noticeable.
I apologize for being accurate, however, the information that is used to measure short selling is based on % of float, not $ value. So the information being quoted in the posts here and on Twitter show a decline of the number of shares that are short. This shows a substantial decline. Also confirmed by Tesla Facts post referred to elsewhere in this thread.

Option activity, short vs long is not reflected in those numbers so we don't have an overall picture. However, we can be sure the # of shares shorted is much lower than it has been over the past year and a half.
 
@FactChecking puts the 10% drop today down to shorts causing a gamma squeeze through Put buying. We've seen this pattern before in recent weeks (eg Tuesday 9th Nov) where Elon's selling causes downwards pressure that gets accelerated by Shorts/HFT causing MM's to delta hedge their puts.


Confused - put contracts were opened = puts sold short ? Bullish?
 
I think this kind of volatility is due to a lot of traders trading very few shares. As an increasing number of funds and individuals stake out a position in TSLA for the long-term, there are fewer and fewer shares that are actually trading hands, they are just doing it more rapidly, hence the volatility. Buy, buy, buy followed by sell, sell, sell. The number of TSLA traders is likely increasing with the increasing holders. Traders like a stock that makes big moves quickly so they can get in and get out. They also like a stock on the rise. Of course, Elon's shares coming into the market is increasing the number of shares available for trading somewhat but I think the overall trend is for people to realize Tesla is a great long-term opportunity and people that previously traded it on valuation are increasingly putting it aside and holding it for the long-term.

Volatility is natural in markets, sometimes its higher and sometimes it's lower, the market will decide which it is. Even if you are a long term buy and hold investor volatility is a good thing because it provides opportunity for better entry or exit points (depending upon whether you are building a position or selling one off). If you are just holding, then it matters not even a little bit. People put too much importance on the market price and especially the fluctuations. While one can claim the market price is important because it's the best and only true measure of what a stock or company is worth, that's only as true as it is. What I mean by that is, obviously, the value of a company doesn't wildly fluctuate through the days and weeks like the share price is doing, no, the share price is always trying to find the true value. But it is distorted by so many factors that have nothing to do with the true value of the company and the shares. So that is all noise of the market trying to find the "true" value and is best ignored by a long-term holder.

A great investor has conviction in their own estimation of future value and don't constantly look to the market for confirmation. Sure, it's always nice when the market appears to confirm your estimation but that's all it ever is (an appearance of confirmation). Since the market can be fickle, it can change its mind too. That's why it's always best to focus on the company, their current performance and your estimation of their future performance, not the share price. Because the share price will take care of itself and you have no control over it.

All that said, I think the current volatility, based on the factors in my first paragraph (more traders trading fewer shares more rapidly) will lead to some massive moves to the upside in the near future. Because I think there is HUGE demand for long-term shares that will be filled on any moves lower and so the volatility will cause shares to trend higher. Much higher if the volatility continues. This is really just noise but it will have the effect of valuing more of TSLA's future growth sooner. Tesla has been 'overvalued' by traditional metrics since they went public (and rightly so). The only exception, by my analysis, was in 2019. We have always suspected that as the market learns more about what makes Tesla tick, this effect will become more pronounced. Tesla is stock that will be wildly 'overvalued' by traditional metrics as far as the eye can see (and again, rightly so).

People want a piece of a company that has nearly unlimited growth potential and a very high likelihood of taking good advantage of that potential. And that is exactly what the market is starting to see. The volatility is a natural result of traders and the rest of the market trying to figure out just how much confidence the market has in Tesla's future growth. And it really is noise if you are a long-term investor. The share price doesn't matter unless you are the kind of investor that thinks Tesla will not have a bright future, that things are great right now but that innovation will dry up, competition will become fierce and profit margins will be squeezed by having to compete with superior manufacturers that can produce at a lower cost. If that is you, then you should take advantage of this volatility by selling during or shortly after one of these bull peaks. But I see a strong future for Tesla so I'm not about to exit under $2400 this year and my number will go up next year, and the year after that, as long as I think Tesla continues to have great long-term potential. The market price is almost meaningless unless it becomes what I would consider nearly fully valued looking out a handful of years. And that's probably not going to happen because it would mean the market is more bullish than I am.

$500 more or less per share is inconsequential unless you are building a position, liquidating a position or fancy yourself a trader. Because no one can accurately predict where the price will be tomorrow, next week or next month. It's up to the market.
Post of merit 👏🏼
 
I think the idea is, put contracts opened, MMs hedge by selling shares, thereby putting downward pressure on SP.

Yeah, but a lot of those puts are bullish spreads put on by retail. Spreads are already twice the number of contracts and narrow spreads can be leveraged to have a hundred times more contracts than a naked spread for the same collateral. Being bullish, the MM would hedge these by buying shares.

I think he is attaching too much importance to the absolute number of contracts without considering that they are not all naked short puts.
 
Yeah, but a lot of those puts are bullish spreads put on by retail. Spreads are already twice the number of contracts and narrow spreads can be leveraged to have a hundred times more contracts than a naked spread for the same collateral. Being bullish, the MM would hedge these by buying shares.

I think he is attaching too much importance to the absolute number of contracts without considering that they are not all naked short puts.

True. I sold 2 more puts 1000 12/3 yesterday, on top of the 20 sold earlier. Those 2 puts are bullish and push the SP up a little bit when a Market Maker hedges them, but they are also part of those 80,000 puts he attributes to the shorts in their effort to push TSLA down. And there are many more put sellers like me. So unless you know the exact status of those 80,000 contracts it’s impossible to draw the strong conclusion Tesla Facts is drawing. He may be right, he probably is right, but it cannot be presented as a fact.
 
Confused - put contracts were opened = puts sold short ? Bullish?
As I understand it (anyone correct me if I'm wrong), Shorts have been purchasing Puts from the Market Makers. This causes the Market Maker to sell TSLA stock to remain delta neutral. This puts downwards pressure on the stock, which shorts add to, causing the delta to change and requiring market makers to sell more stock. The end result is a gamma squeeze with a rapid change in delta causing the stock price to plummet over a short period on relatively light volume.
 
It's tricky because there's not an observable pattern. What we've seen is:

1st week: Monday
2nd week: Monday & Tuesday
3rd week (this week): Tuesday so far

It's almost like he's trying to send another code with his choice of day for selling. However it's a bit more than 50% done now.

How do you figure that he is 50% done? He has 23,737,050 vested shares in the 2012 incentive, and he has only exercised 8,610,724 of them. (Or ~36% of them.)

Or he has exercised 4 of the 11 tranches of this option grant. So we have 7 more days of selling to exercise his 2012 vested options. (Assuming he executes them all this year.)

Remember, he set this plan in motion before the 10% poll.
I can't remember now, but isn't it possible for Elon to halt execution of a planned sell? Maybe he had lined up a clever series of dates including Mondays and Tuesdays on that day in September, and then decided to cancel one or two of them closer to those dates, depending on actual market reaction?

Also he doesn't really need to sell all of his granted options this year since they won't die until August, right? May be better tax wise though, plus the political signaling.

It does strike me as a very conscious choice of number of shares sold in each planned stratum. Unfortunately Elon is forbidden to tell anyone what that secret plan is before the fact! Maybe we will get wiser in ... let me check ... about a fortnight? ;)

I don't know much, in case you'all were wondering. Interesting conundrum!
 
I visited the local showroom yesterday. There were a lot more cars on the lot compared to just a week ago. There were three smaller transport vehicles loading up used cars, I think to take to wholesalers, including a model X. I think they had more new model Ss, I think they looked sweet. I have zero concern about yoke adaptation. At least one of the S models had a note in the windshield as if it needed something done/fixed before selling. I made my spouse sit in a model Y, noted the increased ease of entry and exit. They thought it might have looked longer. After that simple sit test I would have bought one then and there if available, now at home considering trade in value on my 3P-. I saw others test riding Ys. BULLISH DECEMBER for U.S!