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Just to be clear here, the only people that currently have v12 are employees, not shareholders, but your point still stands that they can have a bias towards wanting FSD to improve so that it's one less FUD point for them to have to hear about the company that they work for. The study itself I believe is performed by Teslascope I believe (once again, possible that they could have a bias towards FSD improvement, but not 100% clear), so it could be possible that their questions were phrased in a way to bias the answers toward improvement as well.

I think a safe point that we can garner from these results, however, is that signficantly more of the testers noticed improvement in human-like driving behavior than roundabouts and lane-keeping.

This point seems to align with most of the other anecdotes we've seen on X as well, which seem to all consistently take note of more human-like driving behavior.
Yes, I know it's for Employees only so far (maybe my wording).

But good point, there seems to be a positive trend on those two features. And yet lane keeping and roundabouts were never a problem for me in a long time. Sedona has 100's, lol. Maybe it's since their first tries last week, and these surfaced as new trouble spots, now improved from the first version 12.0. We should expect new areas for improvement as well as overall trends.

When you say Teslascope, do you mean vehicle telemetry, or is this something else?
 
The article claims Elon Musk repeatedly called BFR "Big F-cking Rocket" in a 2018 SpaceX company meeting, and uses this as evidence that he's on drugs. But everybody in the space community already knows BFR does officially stand for "Big F-cking Rocket", this is a well known fact for more than 10 years, for example from the 2014 article Battle of the Heavyweight Rockets – SLS could face Exploration Class rival:


By 2018 even mainstream media knows this, for example from the article Elon Musk's Victory Lap:


Yet here we're in 2024 and this basic fact is being perverted as "proof" that Elon is on drugs, this is why I don't take any criticism of him seriously, because when I look at the part that I have good knowledge of, it's all outrageous lies like this.
It's not a BFD that Elon knows what BFR means.
 
Uh, no. They are annoyed because as Elon has revealed who he is, it turns out he's a great engineer but a despicable human being.
Maybe he’s not despicable but just high on LSD, cocaine or ecstasy all the time when he retweets things. See WSJ article. I’m glad Tesla leaders are on the record being worried about this
 
You are grossly misrepresenting that segment of the story. That part wasn’t concerned with the name of the rocket, it was that according to multiple people present Elon arrived an hour late, got on stage and rambled on in an almost incoherent fashion for 15 minutes, before Shotwell had to take over.
Which is proof he’s a druggie/was on drugs! Clearly. 🙄

You can’t possibly think of a single reason this could happen where drugs are not involved?
 
When you say Teslascope, do you mean vehicle telemetry, or is this something else?

Teslascope is the name of the X poster. They also monitor a website + service (Teslascope) which any Tesla owner can voluntarily sign up for to provide them with specific details regarding whenever your specific VIN gets software updates, and when you install the updates. Since the service is open to anyone, Tesla employees are also allowed to sign up for the service.
 
People here realize all the "Elon" discussion is going away to file 13 right (along with this one making the point). He did drugs, we all knew this, the list is typical, need to get over it. This happens because he likes to conduct experiments + troubled past. I would expect this from a good Engineer. Dude... (pic of Sean Penn passing a doobie) I'm an Engineer. 😁
 
Here we go:

China Giga-Factory is now running at 1M vehicles per year. The first million cars took 2.5 years to produce, the next million took one year. Presumably they are not sitting on their collective laurels and will be improving on that:

The 1M a year run rate, per your link, appears to be AFTER the Sept upgrades (they updated the official capacity # in October per your link). This amount was already accounted for in the realistic # being nearer 2.1M than 2.5M.


Joe Tegtmeyer reports: Model Y production ramp is starting to hit another gear and within this quarter should roughly double production capability. This would be a run rate of roughly 10K per week from last spring’s record 5K per week peak.

This appears to be about Austin- but behind a Patreon paywall or something?

Where does Joe think they're getting the extra 250,000 Model Ys worth of 2170s from?

As discussed earlier (and again below) Tesla might have spare 4680s quite late in the year to build extra Ys with, but not anytime soon and certainly not enough for an extra 250k in just the part of the year they're available.

Cybertruck production is expected to ramp faster than the original Model Y ramp at Giga Texas. This is experience, Giga Texas at a more mature state overall, and is related to ongoing efforts to increase the speed of the line from what it is now ~25% to closer to 100% by the start of 2nd Qtr.

That seems directly contrary to Teslas own statements that they don't expect to have enough 4680s for 100% of CT production goals until Q3 earliest-- further the MFG process for the CT is pretty different from the Y, so while I think "experience" helps some, it's probably not as much as you think. Regardless, they've said CT won't be material to Tesla financials all of 2024-- so at best you're talking ~100k trucks this year... you need 700k new sales to get to 2.5M... where's the other 600k from? (from what factories and with what batteries?)


Model 3 Highland sighted at Fremont, with U.S. production underway and release imminent:

Not sure how this helps your case? Freemont has been at/near max capacity for a long while now... the refresh might help Tesla not lose sales of 3 in the US, but even that is dubious given the effective $7500 price increase on most of the ones they sell due to the IRA credit going away, and no US cells available to get it back. So at BEST it means 3 sales stay flat- how does that get you to 2.5M?

On the Y in the US we're seeing $5000 a car inventory discounts already early in Q1, even retaining the full $7500 tax credit, to keep moving existing production.

At any given price point there's a limit to how many buyers exist no matter how great your product is. Elon has repeatedly made this point. So aside from needing to find cells and factory space to MAKE 700k more cars, you need to find buyers for them, with pricing you're ok selling at. Lots of moving parts.


There was 57% growth in Europe in 2023. I don't know what the German word for Laurels is, but if I had to guess, I'd think maybe there wasn't one, because that crew in Grunheide isn't going to be resting on them in 2024.

57% YoY-- but declining deliveries every quarter through the year. This isn't even specific to Tesla, car buying in the EU is down a BUNCH overall due to broad economic reasons. Berlin actually stopped production in December because of excess inventory with no buyers. Berlin has the ability to make lots more cars (if batteries existed to put in them) but keeps choosing not to. Even with just the 2 shifts running instead of 4 supply was not a problem in Europe- finding enough buyers for that much production was. Where do you imagine the buyers for hundreds of thousands more would come from, esp. given EV incentives went away in Germany and elsewhere end of 2023? Troy has the #s and breakdowns here:



Always skate to the where the puck is going to be, not where it is now, especially when Tesla is shooting the puck...

That would be the next gen car....which will reignite >50% YoY for a good while... but we won't see that (possibly not at all, but certainly not in any meaningful numbers) in 2024.


Enjoy, I'll check back with you in one year on that 2.5M production number that you don't think Tesla is going to make. ;)

Maybe just check back in 3 weeks to see if Tesla issues much lower guidance than 2.5 (say, nearer the 2.1 I'm suggesting) on the earnings call, since they obviously have an even better understanding of factory capacity, battery supply, and customer demand in various regions than any of us.




He did drugs, we all knew this, the list is typical, need to get over it.


My main concern with the drugs thing is technically this is a violation of government contracts and could, if the government wanted to "go after" him as some suggest they do, be a genuine (or at least legally legitimate) reason to screw SpaceX over.

The difficulty level there is there's literally no alternative for them to turn to at this time... so imagine that big sweating guy with 2 red buttons meme where the buttons are:

"Screw over Elon but have no ability to reach space"
and
"Ignore the drugs and keep giving SpaceX billions to access space in economical ways nobody else can provide and might not for years to come"

So far, the drugs being a bit of an open secret, they keep pressing the second one. Perhaps this latest round of stories is trying to pressure "them" to push the other one?
 
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The 1M a year run rat, per your link, appears to be AFTER the Sept upgrades (they updated the official capacity # in October per your link). This amount was already accounted for in the realistic # being nearer 2.1M than 2.5M.




This appears to be about Austin- but behind a Patreon paywall or something?

Where does Joe think they're getting the extra 250,000 Model Ys worth of 2170s from?



That seems directly contrary to Teslas own statements that they don't expect to have enough 4680s for 100% of CT production goals until Q3 earliest-- further the MFG process for the CT is pretty different from the Y, so while I think "experience" helps some, it's probably not as much as you think. Regardless, they've said CT won't be material to Tesla financials all of 2024-- so at best you're talking ~100k trucks this year... you need 700k new sales to get to 2.5M... where's the other 600k from? (from what factories and with what batteries?)




Not sure how this helps your case? Freemont has been at/near max capacity for a long while now... the refresh might help Tesla not lose sales of 3 in the US, but even that is dubious given the effective $7500 price increase on most of the ones they sell due to the IRA credit going away, and no US cells available to get it back. So at BEST it means 3 sales stay flat- how does that get you to 2.5M?




57% YoY-- but declining deliveries every quarter through the year. This isn't even specific to Tesla, car buying in the EU is down a BUNCH overall due to broad economic reasons. Berlin actually stopped production in December because of excess inventory with no buyers. Berlin has the ability to make lots more cars (if batteries existed to put in them) but keeps choosing not to. Even with just the 2 shifts running instead of 4 supply was not a problem in Europe- finding enough buyers for that much production was. Where do you imagine the buyers for hundreds of thousands more would come from, esp. given EV incentives went away in Germany and elsewhere end of 2023? Troy has the #s and breakdowns here:





That would be the next gen car....which will reignite >50% YoY for a good while... but we won't see that (possibly not at all, but certainly not in any meaningful numbers) in 2024.




Maybe just check back in 3 weeks to see if Tesla issues much lower guidance than 2.5 (say, nearer the 2.1 I'm suggesting) on the earnings call, since they obviously have an even better understanding of factory capacity, battery supply, and customer demand in various regions than any of us.
The recent agreements between Tesla and Samsung... any potential for new batteries there to gap up in '24? My apologies, I didn't read the Samsung agreement but they do describe a fast and stable ramp situation with short lead-time. Source materials are another story, but 100% automated is also interesting.

Edit: (Another clue?) In addition, roughly 80% of the raw materials used in IT batteries are used in automotive batteries.

"Samsung SDI has a 15-year experience of lithium-ion battery mass production. It sold over 7 billion cells for the past 15 years and is now selling over 1 billion cells per year. The production lines of Samsung SDI are 100% automated. Furthermore, the prismatic lithium-ion battery that Samsung SDI supplies for automotive applications have a relatively short production lead time and high process stability leading to higher productivity and cost reduction compared to other types of batteries."

 
The recent agreements between Tesla and Samsung... any potential for new batteries there to gap up in '24?



You mean this?

That's about integrating some Samsung smart appliances and energy monitoring to integrate with things like powerwalls... there's nothing at all about Samsung supplying batteries to Tesla in any way.
 
57% YoY-- but declining deliveries every quarter through the year. This isn't even specific to Tesla, car buying in the EU is down a BUNCH overall due to broad economic reasons. Berlin actually stopped production in December because of excess inventory with no buyers. Berlin has the ability to make lots more cars (if batteries existed to put in them) but keeps choosing not to. Even with just the 2 shifts running instead of 4 supply was not a problem in Europe- finding enough buyers for that much production was. Where do you imagine the buyers for hundreds of thousands more would come from, esp. given EV incentives went away in Germany and elsewhere end of 2023? Troy has the #s and breakdowns here:

Berlin stopping production in the last week of December due to excess inventory is conjecture.
My data shows me that Berlin hit a record in the 4 week period (Nov 26 to Dec 23) of over 21k units. This is the highest 4 week production out of Berlin when I look back at my data. So it appears to be a burst to allow for a year-end shutdown which is common at factories located in Europe when major year-end maintenance is performed (requiring production lines to be shutdown).

Also the drop in Model Y registrations from Q3 to Q4 (62k to 54K) was driven by reduced model Y deliveries from Shanghai, 26k in Q3 and 9k in Q4 (as per Troy's data) as Shanghai directed more production to China to feed it's local market.

Shutting down during the last week of the year for maintenance and to allow holiday time off is also conjecture on my part but looking at the data and what is customary in that region, I lean toward this answer.

I agree with you anyhow that car buying is weak in the EU due to interest rates and economic conditions as it is in many other regions as well.
 
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You mean this?

That's about integrating some Samsung smart appliances and energy monitoring to integrate with things like powerwalls... there's nothing at all about Samsung supplying batteries to Tesla in any way.
OK, but I do like the collaboration... we'll have to see if anything else pans out.

The bigger point is just because we can't put a finger on resources doesn't mean Tesla can't still pull off steady growth in '24. We don't know what we don't know, but the earnings '24 guidance will sure be interesting. Stock could get hammer with 2.1M guidance.

I'm gonna still go with 2.5M as the goal and they'll just have to figure it out ASAP. This would be typical Elon, with some backup options in the back of his and other heads. Plus, they can revise to take the hit when it's actually recognized. I mean, who does that in the auto industry? /s
 
Maybe he’s not despicable but just high on LSD, cocaine or ecstasy all the time when he retweets things. See WSJ article. I’m glad Tesla leaders are on the record being worried about this
NASA says otherwise...
After that one puff with Rogan, I agreed, at NASA’s request, to do 3 years of random drug testing. Not even trace quantities were found of any drugs or alcohol.
@WSJ is not fit to line a parrot cage for bird 💩
 
Berlin stopping production in the last week of December due to excess inventory is conjecture.
My data shows me that Berlin hit a record in the 4 week period (Nov 26 to Dec 23) of over 21k units. This is the highest 4 week production out of Berlin when I look back at my data. So it appears to be a burst to allow for a year-end shutdown which is common at factories located in Europe when major year-end maintenance is performed (requiring production lines to be shutdown).

Also the drop in Model Y registrations from Q3 to Q4 (62k to 54K) was driven by reduced model Y deliveries from Shanghai, 26k in Q3 and 9k in Q4 (as per Troy's data) as Shanghai directed more production to China to feed it's local market.

Shutting down during the last week of the year for maintenance and to allow holiday time off is also conjecture on my part but looking at the data and what is customary in that region, I lean toward this answer.

I agree with you anyhow that car buying is weak in the EU due to interest rates and economic conditions as it is in many other regions as well.



I think that's all fair data to include, though there's going to necessarily be a degree of speculation all around...But I think the Eu weakness in general, the cutting of EV subsidies for 2024 in major markets, and the fact Berlin ran the year 50k below two-shift max capacity, all point to it'd be tough find six-figures-more buyers there even if they could produce at that rate...


To me the issue is there's at least 3 different problems between 1.8M and 2.5M....

1) batteries for 700,000 more cars (a decent chunk of which MUST be non-Chinese batteries, because they're not going to start selling both a $7500 tax credit and a no $7500 tax credit Model Y here.

2) Finding buyers for 700k more cars at/near existing price points- esp. with loss of the $7500 credit on most Model 3 sales in the US and the fact they've already been doing 3-5k inventory discounts several quarters now just to get to the 1.8M

3) Factory capacity for 700k more cars in a way that's both possible (the actual capacity to do this, in geos where items 1 and 2 are ALSO solved for that geo) and makes economic sense (the Germany shift labor cost issue for example)


I think these are all addressable to get you another couple hundred k sales on the year plus some units that we hope are ballpark 100k on CT by end of year (though given ramp will prob. be lower overall, even if 2024 EOY run rate is higher)

I don't think they're all solvable to get you 700k (and you need to fully solve all 3 to get there), not without both some Hopium based cell supply including quite a bit non-chinese and either another major price change or a Hopium based new set of EV government incentives that don't currently exist.

All of this stuff should be at least partly solved for 2025, 4680s assuming no more major bumps in the scaling, will be available in #s for MY to free up US 2170s to bring back IRA credits on the 3 by then- and at least early production next-gen ramping at Austin should be going on... though if they don't break ground in Mexico soonish it might be 2026 before growth gets heavily back to 'explosive' with next-gen only coming out of Austin before then.



the earnings '24 guidance will sure be interesting. Stock could get hammer with 2.1M guidance.

Which of these do you think is worse overall?

Tesla issues 2.1M guidance, and reiterates the 50% average over a number of years, suggesting 2024 will be a 'less' year but they expect 'more' years the next couple after

Tesla issues 2.5M guidance and misses

Tesla issues no specific 2024 guidance and just reiterates the 50% average over a number of years goal
 
You have life lines. Want to call a friend? 50/50?

I guess it all comes down to batteries. I hope we get some clarity on the earnings call.
We may still not know how they plan to do it. TMC Survey?

Here's one example backup plan... 300 mi range might be a moot point if there is 10x growth in the chargers out there (some exaggeration but it is ramping hard). The media brainwashed everyone into thinking this way. "Range Anxiety" is so over-rated. My vehicle keeps trying to get me to go further per charge but I cannot hold it for that long!!! (I realized they are trying to make the existing chargers deliver more and <20% SOC charges faster than say 30%. Our Y told us this much recently.)

Shorter range is just one option, introduce a really low cost 200 mi unit, I bet folks could re-calibrate their thinking when money talks and margins improve. I've always believed the Model 3 could be made for $25K with all the castings and volume. Just start removing things if needed, plus extreme automation... (but I stood pretty much alone on this view).

As we all know, it's the # of units and resulting miles driven that really counts toward the mission. If the batteries don't materialize, there is already a Plan B and I bank on that steady growth. (So much talk about not meeting '23 guidance - for nothing.) But to keep building high-range vehicles to come up short when you know there is a shortage... this is also ludicrous. And to admit they can only do 2.1M is not Tesla style. There is ALWAYS a way.

The stock may still dive on the 25th, but that's just the usual game that MSM and a gazillion day-traders playing around.
 
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Which of these do you think is worse overall?

Tesla issues 2.1M guidance, and reiterates the 50% average over a number of years, suggesting 2024 will be a 'less' year but they expect 'more' years the next couple after

Tesla issues 2.5M guidance and misses

Tesla issues no specific 2024 guidance and just reiterates the 50% average over a number of years goal
None of the above:
Tesla issues 2.5M, and then hits it.
How about putting some water in that glass there...
 
I agree with you anyhow that car buying is weak in the EU due to interest rates and economic conditions as it is in many other regions as well.
Not in all EU countries. Belgium had >30% more car sales in 2023 than in 2022. Since we have the same interest rates and economic conditions as the rest of Europe, local conditions seem to be more important for the car sales. See https://www.febiac.be/sites/default/files/media/file/2024-01/2401_Cars by make.pdf

Edit: the local condition in Belgium may be that companies were pulling forward purchases of hybrids to take advantage of the old company car rules, before being fiscally forced to buy full EVs.