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What part of, "if I don't get 25%, I would rather develop state of the art AI/robotics elsewhere" not compromise a threat?
(I'm assuming you mean "not comprise a threat" - apologies if you really meant 'compromise')

Since the core concern for him is the voting, he could easily mean that instead of developing AI/Robotics under TSLA, he could develop it under the umbrella of his other existing companies that he presumably has more control over.

Why jump straight to "Elon's leaving Tesla and creating a Tesla competitor" (as some posters here did - I've skimmed the last few pages...)? I get how it can be interpreted as a threat, if one ignores Musk's entire history with the company and how much of his life he's poured into it.

His sentiment may not be selfish at all... It actually sounds like he doesn't want sole/unassailable control over the tech, hence wanting TSLA to develop it in the first place - so that he can be overruled with enough voters, but it sounds like he wants to find the balance that TSLA could provide so that it wouldn't be too easy for some other bad actors to take control...
 
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I cannot believe that Elon's most important tweet from yesterday hardy is discussed at all!

I have no AI background except for a primer back in uni. No robotics knowledge either. But I have to love this video!

Look at the smooth movement of Optimus - especially the hands and wrists. Really impressive compared to other bots I have seen. This mechanical excellence from Tesla assure me that they have got the best folks working on this. When you get old and can't get out of your recliner - you would prefer the bot with the smooth arms and soft movements - not the jerky one! And when Optimus is building phones for Apple I am sure nimble hands are preferred to imprecise ones bumping into expensive phone parts.

If you got disappointed when Elon specified that this was not autonomous yet - don't be. Optimus sorting those blocks a while back was. This time Tesla is showing off a teleoperated bot. That Optimus can learn from videos and from teleoperations must be a strength. Humans benefit from the ability to look at a case from several angles. I guess AI brains will have the same benefit - learning faster and better. And if future robot users can pick video or teleoperations when teaching the bot new tasks that is a win-win.

If Tesla wanted to they could sell this version of Optimus to be teleoperated into doing dangerous tasks. But I believe they will stay internal for a good while yet.

Edit: The future value of this product boggles my mind
 
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I cannot believe that Elon's most important tweet from yesterday hardy is discussed at all!

I have no AI background except for a primer back in uni. No robotics knowledge either. But I have to love this video!

Look at the smooth movement of Optimus - especially the hands and wrists. Really impressive compared to other bots I have seen. This mechanical excellence from Tesla assure me that they have got the best folks working on this. When you get old and can't get out of your recliner - you would prefer the bot with the smooth arms and soft movements - not the jerky one! And when Optimus is building phones for Apple I am sure nimble hands are preferred to imprecise ones bumping into expensive phone parts.

If you got disappointed when Elon specified that this was not autonomous yet - don't be. Optimus sorting those blocks a while back was. This time Tesla is showing off a teleoperated bot. That Optimus can learn from videos and from teleoperations must be a strength. Humans benefit from the ability to look at a case from several angles. I guess AI brains will have the same benefit - learning faster and better. And if future robot users can pick video or teleoperations when teaching the bot new tasks that is a win-win.

If Tesla wanted to they could sell this version of Optimus to be teleoperated into doing dangerous tasks. But I believe they will stay internal for a good while yet.

Edit: The future value of this product boggles my mind
This video isnt all what it looks like in the beginning. Optimus isn't doing this movements by itself. It is operated by a human who is actually doing the movements. Optimus is just following. Just look at the right corner of the video, you can see the gloves of the operator doing the movements.
Sure this is a nice video, but it's not that stunning what it seems to appear.
 
The hostility on this forum for anyone who dares to question Elon is not at all helpful for dialog.

So your postiion is that using charged word like 'stupid', 'BS', and 'dereliction of duty' to describe the CEO is helpful for dialog? But replying in kind is not? The mind wobbles... that is the actual definition of trolling.
 
This video isnt all what it looks like in the beginning. Optimus isn't doing this movements by itself. It is operated by a human who is actually doing the movements. Optimus is just following. Just look at the right corner of the video, you can see the gloves of the operator doing the movements.
Sure this is a nice video, but it's not that stunning what it seems to appear.

It is learning.
 
This video isnt all what it looks like in the beginning. Optimus isn't doing this movements by itself. It is operated by a human who is actually doing the movements. Optimus is just following. Just look at the right corner of the video, you can see the gloves of the operator doing the movements.
Sure this is a nice video, but it's not that stunning what it seems to appear.
Sure it's not what it looks like initially, but the capability is clearly there.

Here's what I see that is being overlooked: this teleoperation is a massive opportunity in and of itself! You can place an Optimus bot anywhere and have the ability to have anybody (or any expert) operate it. With an Optimus bot at your location you can have any professional at your fingertips. For instance an assisted living facility with a single Optimus bot can have a doctor check in on a patient one moment, and in the next the bot could have an elevator expert conduct an on-site assessment and repair.

This simple teleoperation feature alone is a force multiplier. This is working from home 2.0.
 
I think one aspect of Elons personality (and I often share it as an autistic trait) is that he finds it difficult to realize that other people do not know what he knows, or understand the implications.
Drawing from this, we might extrapolate a few possibilities:
  • Optimus progress is moving much faster than people think
  • FSD is moving much faster than people think
I am very surprised by bot progress. The difference between version 1 and 2 is huge. Remember how long it took to get the model X made? the model 3? The cybertruck? The bot is moving at warp speed by comparison.

Tesla is nothing if not agile. This is a good thing. They screwed up with solar (never made any money), but may have hit the jackpot with FSD and the bot. I'm sure Elon originally wanted a car company, but he is chasing progress where it seems most rapid. Its not inconceivable that in 20 years time Tesla is a global AI and robotics company, who also make some cars, just like amazon and books.

So I am optimistic.

But having said all that, I am definitely very much over feeling panics when elon tweets controversial things. When we get back to $300 I'll take some winnings, and a bigger chunk at $400. I'll likely be giving up some massive gains in 2030, but I'll sleep easier :D.
 
This video isnt all what it looks like in the beginning. Optimus isn't doing this movements by itself. It is operated by a human who is actually doing the movements. Optimus is just following. Just look at the right corner of the video, you can see the gloves of the operator doing the movements.
Sure this is a nice video, but it's not that stunning what it seems to appear.

Don't think you read my post. It's main point was why teleoperation is a good thing.
 
Don't think you read my post. It's main point was why teleoperation is a good thing.
Its a kind of imitation learning,afaik. Learning is the precursor to automation. The key points being demonstrated here are the dexterity of the robot and the fact that it can be teleoperated. Tesla has had its learning breakthrough in fsd about 12 months ago when Elon announced that the path to v12 tirned out to be trivially simple. So having Optimus be able to do complex task is important progress if we assume tesla knows a/many formula/e for learning.
 
Since the core concern for him is the voting, he could easily mean that instead of developing AI/Robotics under TSLA, he could develop it under the umbrella of his other existing companies that he presumably has more control over.
The company Tesla can not develop (with shareholders money!) something (AI/Dojo) that becomes an interesting proposition and let one of the shareholders walk away with this asset without compensation for the other shareholders.
(Also you can not change the shareholder-construction without a majority of the shareholders approving (and getting compensated).)
But the FUD about this will possibly hit the fan.
On the other hand, the legal impossibility to screw-off AI/Dojo from Tesla and the attention the AI-side gets (as being on the verge of a giant boom) could do a lot of good for the stock. Like the certainty of Elon not selling $TSLA, possibly even selling/IPO-ing X, Starlink or Space-X to be able to buy more $TSLA or to buy-out AI from $TSLA into another holding, for which we must be compensated, so getting early and more sure money (I do not favor this!) driving SP even up.
As I am typing this all kinds of thoughts and ideas come up, so I guess it is best to HODL and just ride the waves with options as I usually do.
(I am a regular member in the options thread, just hopping in to see the general reactions over Elon's comments. I turned more bearish over the long weekend after being confident on holding ($217 on) the rising longer term bottom-line. If that breaks, we could possibly be heading for the rising all-time-bottom-line that now would implicate SP 126. (no kidding..))
 
Lol, shouldn't you be reshuffling some Calls right now? I'll be the fist to say I told you so. You're welcome.
No options open currently but I certainly wish I had sold some calls. Luckily I sold 2/3 of my TSLA dramatically higher than where we are today. I didn’t realize you told me to do that. Thank you for what exactly? 😂
 
Hold on. Musk manages cash flow like no other businessperson of whom I am aware. He's superior. But like any startup founder, he does not necessarily manage to maximize free cash flow in the short or medium term. If he believes that there is an opportunity available and his pocketbook allows, he will ramp up spending, FCF be damned. And P/L doesn't even cross his mind.

In the Q3 earnings call, it seemed clear that Musk and the CFO were indicating that FCF is being sacrificed for the greater opportunity in AI. So trying to evaluate Tesla as of today mostly through the lens of FCF may make you unduly pessimistic as to how the company is executing. I thought they were warning that we might not like the next few FCF prints.
The primary problem in your post is the word "maximize". Neither I nor Mr musk have, IIRC, ever used that word with reference to Free Cash Flow or, I think, any other major topic. The problem in using that word is that it takes explicitly that FCF is the primary objective above all other factors. With rare possible exceptions such an assertion is not valid. In any business, including Tesla, there are multiple competing objectives that must to be optimized. That is to say among those objectives the relative priorities depend on multiple factors.

Anyone who has done startups and/or run established businesses understands intuitively that no single objective, except survival, reaches the level of 'maximizing' any factor.

So, that being true, why harp so much on Free Cash Flow? As one of my startup colleagues ones told me, "for shorthand we all need to have a single 'measure of merit' that alerts us to search for causality". That search for causality is the thing that helps find why a problem might be happening.

Specifically for Tesla we should all know that first quarter 2024 will have reduced Free Cash Flow. Why do we know that? The cause is clear. The Suez Canal is no longer safe for transportation between Shanghai and European destinations. That means the time in transit for anything at all moving between China and Europe will take, typically, an extra 10 days. That already has increased shipping costs as well as slower time in transit. That alone will significantly reduce Free Cash Flow. Since we already know Tesla German production has stopped for two weeks due to those shipping problems we also know FCF will decline due to lost sales, NOT accompanied by commensurately lower operating expenses.

When Elon suggests there might be 'breakeven FCF' in the near future almost everyone thought of price reduction as the culprit. Nearly nobody has thought of the impact from the Suez canal. Why? Precisely because analysis's and many others do not think of 'root cause', just remaining with whatever prejudgements they have already made. Elon, whatever his defects may be, cannot be described as superficial about core business operations. He is acutely aware of the role geopolitical factors (e.g. armed conflict) have on Tesla.

Given all that we also should know that aggressive efforts to reduce cost of finished goods are continuing and logistics, as a core Tesla competence, is obsessively searching for better solutions. Among those things few are a critical as cell and pack production. A careful look shows that Panasonic, BYD, CATL and Tesla itself are exerting major efforts to increase cell and pack production. Those are all working towards reduced cost, increased cell performance by all metrics, and similar reduced weight and improved performance at pack level. Why now, in the midst fo FCF discussion, raise this issue? Not simple but fundamental. Reduced weight and improved performance at pack level allows a virtuous process wherein ever gram of reduced weight reduces cost of many components. Few single items can match the cash flow improvement that comes from reducing vehicle weight.

Putting that in context the move to 48v architecture has many benefits, reducing cost is one obvious one, but losing all that copper not only reduces cost but reducing the weight also makes the entire vehicle lighter, so reduces many component stresses, not least for suspension. All that will be reflected in future FCF.

Next, moving towards improved delivery logistics by automating nearly all the delivery process reduces employees needed in the delivery process and speeds the entire process. That time saving also is reflected in FCF, by, say, a half day reduction in cash realization from sales.

There are two other crucially important but rarely mentioned issues. First, Megapack sales have improved cash flow by their constant improvements in packaging including increased pack sizes. Those allow installation and operation much more quickly that was previously possible. That improves FCF per unit at a major rate, enhanced by the expectation of more Megapack production sites. Not often mentioned, mostly because TE is not often evaluated in FCF terms. The second component is energy services, including Supercharger revenue, Megapack servicing, subscriptions and Virtual Power Plants/grid services. None of those are disclosed in line items. Thus they are easy to ignore. All of those generate FCF on an ongoing basis while simultaneously having very low marginal cost. I don't mention merchandise sales because those are not significant thus far.

So, the reality is the Free Cash Flow is the summary of all those things and more. By itself, the message of FCF changes is that they should point towards a 'passionate search for causality'. That phrase was in my own PhD thesis in another context. What it means is that a single 'measure of merit' serves as an alert to understand why, rather than an end in itself.

Integrity cannot be superficial, not can be our understanding of an investment.
 
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FWIW another way they could increase Elons % of voting shares controlled would be to do a large share buyback and retire a large # of shares.
Might get Solarcity kind of treatment?..., but couldn't Tesla buy xAI (or a part of it - idea has been floated before) and Elon get more shares, ownership that way?

Based on the share/option count shared here ... all he needs is like another 3-4% more shares...

This topic is too late for Q4 Conf call I think ?
 
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