Thinking of trading my X for a Y, but V.O. concerns me!

[Brian's ReX]

I've been reading the posts (of which there are many!) about Vision-Only MY's. I am a huge fan of EAP/FSD, and use it daily. I will state that while many of you experience "phantom braking", I rarely have that issue. I've got dozens of thousands of miles using AP and NoAP, and can state that I truly love this feature! Upon reading other's experiences, I feel like I must be very lucky. This is not to say that I have not had issues... I certainly have. However, I am always at the ready, and am always visually aware as to the type of things that I believe make my AP react in a more different, or uncomfortable, way than I would if I wasn't on AP.

I admittedly know little about the components that make AP work, but I believe my model/build has radar as part of the process. I haven't been on this forum for a few months, and seeing this "Vision Only" bunch of threads has me thinking "Is this an option when purchasing an MY, or is there a way to be sure the model I build has radar?"

This is a question I asked of the salesperson with which I was dealing. I got a 'non-answer'... so I turn to this forum for help. What I was told, was: "all Y's come with radar, it's just disabled at the moment" - to - "they have discontinued installing radar, as the vision-only version is better". These are two distinctly different answers.

I've had such great luck with my X's AP (with radar?) that I am now hesitating getting a new Y without radar.

If you're wondering "why the heck would he trade his car that he's had almost zero problems with?!?"... The simple answer is 'retirement'. We will be moving in to one of our condos that has underground parking with individual dedicated charging in the parking space. Being a new building, it's quite tight in said garage, and my wife is afraid she'll hit a barrier and ruin "my baby". The Y is ever-so-slightly smaller overall, and we've determined that it will be easier for her to park.

 

[thesmokingman]

Not sure there should be any concern especially since all that radar hardware is useless.

 

[jcanoe]

There is no radar unit in the latest Model Y vehicles. The ride of the MY is firmer than the MX. You should definitely schedule a test drive of the MY. I park in a garage most days and find the Y sometimes can be difficult to maneuver due to the large turning radius and the lack of 360 view camera view.

In 15 months of ownership I have scraped the rear quarter panel my Model Y by the charge port on a traffic barrier/pillar that was leaning at an odd angle and also separately curbed the right front wheel. Both times I was in an outdoor parking lot.

 

[Brian's ReX]

Interesting point! Is the Y's turning radius larger than the X's? I feel like the windows on the Y would provide a better view than the X, but a test drive will help secure (or disprove) that point.

I had an Audi with 360 degree view... it was San Fran Tastic! I'll never understand why our Teslas don't have this capability.

 

[thesmokingman]

Interesting point! Is the Y's turning radius larger than the X's? I feel like the windows on the Y would provide a better view than the X, but a test drive will help secure (or disprove) that point.

I had an Audi with 360 degree view... it was San Fran Tastic! I'll never understand why our Teslas don't have this capability.

No, the Y has a smaller turning radius. I've driven both though much less time behind an X. The X feels big and floaty, it feels dated inside. The Y is feels much smaller, and drives like a sporty car. The X will be a much more comfy car given it's adjustable suspension unlike a Y which imo was purposely made sporty. This could be an issue if you were expecting a similar ride to the X. Regarding the interior it might be that I'd already gotten used to the Y's interior. The refreshed X has adopted a very similar interior to the Y.

 

[jcanoe]

Interesting point! Is the Y's turning radius larger than the X's? I feel like the windows on the Y would provide a better view than the X, but a test drive will help secure (or disprove) that point.

I had an Audi with 360 degree view... it was San Fran Tastic! I'll never understand why our Teslas don't have this capability.

The turning circle of the Long Range Model Y, curb to curb, is listed as 39.8 feet in the owner's manual. It may be a smaller turning circle than the MX but it can still mean more than one cut to complete a turn in a parking garage.

 

[mrwug]

Elon has stated that future FSD updates will be vision-only. Even if you don't get the Y, you'll need to choose between accepting updates and continuing to utilize radar.

 

[Tha_Ape]

Not sure there should be any concern especially since all that radar hardware is useless.

Its not useless... in fact a Y from 2020 can follow at a distance of "1" and at cruise up to 90mph.

Vision still has some catching up to do.

------------------

I didnt get FSD... does vision-only smart summons work?

 

[thesmokingman]

Its not useless... in fact a Y from 2020 can follow at a distance of "1" and at cruise up to 90mph.

Vision still has some catching up to do.

------------------

I didnt get FSD... does vision-only smart summons work?

It's useless in that it is no longer being developed or updtaed. Thus if you want to continue using it you can never update. And if you do update, the hardware is thus rendered useless.

 

[Gravexmind]

Elon has stated that future FSD updates will be vision-only. Even if you don't get the Y, you'll need to choose between accepting updates and continuing to utilize radar.

Didn’t he also say that cars with radar are going to get disabled through software updates in the future also?

So getting a used model y with radar would be pointless if a software update is going to disable to radar anyways.

 

[Tha_Ape]

Didn’t he also say that cars with radar are going to get disabled through software updates in the future also?

So getting a used model y with radar would be pointless if a software update is going to disable to radar anyways.

Musk has said a lot of stuff and is more often than not highly optimistic with his timelines. Even if they are going to eventually disable radar, when will it be? 1 month from now? 1 year from now? 5 years from now? Its all speculation. I got my car in June, at that time VO cars were limited to a larger following distance and slower speeds with AP. VO has gotten better in the past 4months, but its still not up to what the radar ones can do.

That said, I wouldn't put a huge premium on radar cars, but for now, they do hold a slight advantage with respect to following distance settings, AP speed limits, smart summoning(?), and the ability to see through fog. How much that matters is highly subjective (are you really using AP >80mph?). It's not pointless if you're pessimistic about Tesla's development timeline and you don't really lose anything (other than radar ) once it goes to vision only.

 

[Brian's ReX]

I read on another thread that Tesla was keeping radar on the new MX and MS? If this is true (unsubstantiated), then the omission of radar on the M3 and MY would seem to be one of price-point (i.e., keeping them cheap as possible). Not a fan of this, if true. Radar should, in this case be an option.

If this is not true, and the whole of Tesla is going radar-less, then I will get on board and go through the growing pains as I did with AP2's first release (before upgrading to FSD). In my experience, as AP2 'aged', it got better with MOST updates (there were some crap updates in there... thankfully short-lived), and then when I upgraded to FSD it got better still.

I had posted a year or so ago about an experience while on AP in which the sky opened up and I was on I-5 on AP, and although I was quite tense and quite at-the-ready... AP did almost flawless! Even when there was so much water on the roadway that I couldn't see lane markers! I have to believe that was because radar saw the median barrier (or something I couldn't see) and adjusted appropriately, even when water-spray was visually obstructive. Vision-only? Eh... Don't think it would have worked as well...

Has anyone confirmed that Tesla still installs and uses radar on new MS and MS's?

 

[thesmokingman]

Has anyone confirmed that Tesla still installs and uses radar on new MS and MS's?

All new Model S and Model X, as well as all vehicles built for markets outside of North America, will continue to be equipped with radar and will have radar-supported Autopilot functionality until we determine the appropriate time to transition those vehicles to Tesla Vision.

Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision | Tesla Support

Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions. In 2021, we began our transition to Tesla Vision by removing radar from Model 3 and Model Y, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Today, in most regions around the globe, these vehicles now rely on Tesla Vision, our camera-based...

www.tesla.com

 

[Brian's ReX]

Thanks @thesmokingman

The wording of this makes it appear that Tesla Vision is the way of the future, and they'll be discontinuing radar altogether.

I guess I'll bite-the-bullet and get my MY on order!

Now, to decide between the long range and the performance? Argh! The salesperson said that the suspension components in the performance model are beefier? If this is true, that's the way I'll go - especially having gone through the dreaded Model X Shudder issue. Don't want that again!

 

[jboy210]

In their AI Day presentation, the Tesla AutoPilot team went over how they were able to achieve similar performance without radar. Now some may say, but radar works in the fog! Well, should you really be driving faster than you (or the car) see in fog? Also, radar gets a return, it does not get identification of what sends the return. Thus phantom braking due to bridge abutments, etc.

 

[thesmokingman]

Thanks @thesmokingman

The wording of this makes it appear that Tesla Vision is the way of the future, and they'll be discontinuing radar altogether.

I guess I'll bite-the-bullet and get my MY on order!

Now, to decide between the long range and the performance? Argh! The salesperson said that the suspension components in the performance model are beefier? If this is true, that's the way I'll go - especially having gone through the dreaded Model X Shudder issue. Don't want that again!

Also if you read the section on the S/X, those cars are not being harvested for FSD development. All the development is on the 3/Y because it is all Vision based. Thus they are focusing on harvesting data from the Vision cars, and then they'll roll that out to the S/X.

Tesla tells new FSD Beta members their cars will use Pure Vision, axing radar altogether

Tesla has switched all vehicles in the Full Self-Driving Beta pool to Pure Vision, completely axing radar from any vehicles within the Beta fleet. Even if a member of the FSD Beta program has radar installed in their vehicle, Tesla’s Full Self-Driving beta program will not utilize it, adopting a...

www.teslarati.com

“Your vehicle is running on Tesla Vision.” Essentially, this means that the car is no longer utilizing the radar devices that previously were operational before the vehicle was added to the Beta fleet.

The Performance is great if you have smooth roads. Essentially they're the same except the Performance is even stiffer. If you like a very sporty ride the Performance is it. As far as the 3/Y goes for build quality and design, they're at the peak of Tesla engineering.

 

[jboy210]

...

The Performance is great if you have smooth roads. Essentially they're the same except the Performance is even stiffer. If you like a very sporty ride the Performance is it. As far as the 3/Y goes for build quality and design, they're at the peak of Tesla engineering.

Agree. When the lease of my Model X was coming up I test drove a Y LR. I was surprised by how firm the ride was and decided to order a new X.

 

[thesmokingman]

Agree. When the lease of my Model X was coming up I test drove a Y LR. I was surprised by how firm the ride was and decided to order a new X.

Yea, I can see why especially when you've gotten accustomed to that very nice air suspension. I don't think the Y will get adaptive dampers of any kind due to it's cost which will push it too close to the X's range.

 

[Daniel L]

I've read about phantom braking but my VO Y has never had a single episode of it over the past 3 weeks of ownership in Southern California. The .36 update seems to have made the car brake smoother as well, either that or I'm developing more confidence in the cars ability to handle traffic. Note, I don't have FSD

 

[Tha_Ape]

In their AI Day presentation, the Tesla AutoPilot team went over how they were able to achieve similar performance without radar. Now some may say, but radar works in the fog! Well, should you really be driving faster than you (or the car) see in fog? Also, radar gets a return, it does not get identification of what sends the return. Thus phantom braking due to bridge abutments, etc.

Yea! I want the car to be BETTER than me... if it can see through walls all the better!

Phantom braking is a vision issue, not radar. It happens on vision only cars and NOT on radar cars outside of Tesla.