The latest post in the other forum (Facebook by the way)..
This is the definition of "entitlement".
This is the definition of "entitlement".
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Thoughts on plugging in without permission...
- Thread starter Darren F
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- Energy Environment Policy
What amount of gasoline do you think people should now expect to take for free from any gas stations they happen to pass by.
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Leaving aside the ethics issue, which others have addressed, I think one one other consideration may be that you do not know what else is on the circuit and how it is loaded. So you might inadvertently trip the breaker. And then what do you do? Odds are, you would not know where the breaker is. There may not be anyone available to help you find it, gain access, and reset it. And other loads might be interrupted. Could affect lights, alarms (unlikely), who knows. Most likely it is a convenience circuit for maintenance and cleaning, but the OP presumably does not know and might cause unintended consequences. E.g., someone else might be prevented from using the circuit for scheduled work (vacuuming a hallway, etc.).
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Hi CPA,
I'm not sure you completely understood my message - I was trying to counter the idea that anything you take is automatically theft. It depends on expectations. That seems (?) similar to your position.
And while theft is always theft regardless of quantity, quantities can very definitely affect reactions. As do expectations. For example, no gas station owner expects people to just take some gas, regardless of quantity. That is clearly theft.
If (see below) drinking hose water is a theft, it is a very tiny theft (Charging an EV is usually not huge either, but those unfamiliar with EVs think it is a lot more than it is and are often not prepared for it - their expectations were different, hence the different reaction to a similar action).
I said I determine whether it is theft or not by whether the homeowner expects it to happen (as opposed to having to ask for permission for everything) which seems fairly in line with what I think you are trying to say. Strangers coming up to your house and drinking from your hose may or may not be expected depending on location and era. It may well have been expected in the neighborhood you grew up in. It might not be in other places or times. When unclear, asking permission clears it up.
Although by crossing property you clearly met the definition of trespassing, and some people (not me) will get really irate about that. This is another great case where one should ask the owner to get clarity on their expectations. However, again the "damage" is tiny. In fact if the damage is really tiny and you save something significant, I don't consider it a great moral failing if people do it - though asking the owner, if they are around, always clears that up.
I think I could boil this down to: if you aren't sure the owner is cool with it, get permission. Which is not that far from "always get permission", but is more practical in some cases like getting a drink of water with no owner in sight. Or using hose bibs and electric outlets on property you are visiting or renting with the owner's permission.
The really tough question (not addressed in the OP's case) is what to do when you don't know what the owner thinks, but you can't find them despite your best efforts and you really need something. If I have other options I will take them, but if I am really stuck I would plug in. Though then I would try to leave a note of explanation and offer payment.
I'm not sure you completely understood my message - I was trying to counter the idea that anything you take is automatically theft. It depends on expectations. That seems (?) similar to your position.
And while theft is always theft regardless of quantity, quantities can very definitely affect reactions. As do expectations. For example, no gas station owner expects people to just take some gas, regardless of quantity. That is clearly theft.
If (see below) drinking hose water is a theft, it is a very tiny theft (Charging an EV is usually not huge either, but those unfamiliar with EVs think it is a lot more than it is and are often not prepared for it - their expectations were different, hence the different reaction to a similar action).
I said I determine whether it is theft or not by whether the homeowner expects it to happen (as opposed to having to ask for permission for everything) which seems fairly in line with what I think you are trying to say. Strangers coming up to your house and drinking from your hose may or may not be expected depending on location and era. It may well have been expected in the neighborhood you grew up in. It might not be in other places or times. When unclear, asking permission clears it up.
Although by crossing property you clearly met the definition of trespassing, and some people (not me) will get really irate about that. This is another great case where one should ask the owner to get clarity on their expectations. However, again the "damage" is tiny. In fact if the damage is really tiny and you save something significant, I don't consider it a great moral failing if people do it - though asking the owner, if they are around, always clears that up.
I think I could boil this down to: if you aren't sure the owner is cool with it, get permission. Which is not that far from "always get permission", but is more practical in some cases like getting a drink of water with no owner in sight. Or using hose bibs and electric outlets on property you are visiting or renting with the owner's permission.
The really tough question (not addressed in the OP's case) is what to do when you don't know what the owner thinks, but you can't find them despite your best efforts and you really need something. If I have other options I will take them, but if I am really stuck I would plug in. Though then I would try to leave a note of explanation and offer payment.
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ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
There are some unusual elements to that story, so I'm not sure how well it applies to other cases.
To my mind, the key point is that he did not have business at the school - while he said he did at first, he was apparently (there were multiple conflicting stories on this case) just stopping by solely to charge (or perhaps, worse, to also use other facilities when he had been asked not to). So the school did not know he was there and therefore could not have expected him to plug in. He should have asked permission, which he did not. So he was clearly stealing.
The OP's case has many different elements that make it less egregious, but still boils down to the host not expecting him to plug in. We can argue about whether the host should expect him to, or will in the future - but he did not know, so even renters should ask before charging their car, even when it would be fine for them to plug in a radio. The expectation difference is why a radio is OK but charging is not; it does not imply that theft status depends on quantity.
To my mind, the key point is that he did not have business at the school - while he said he did at first, he was apparently (there were multiple conflicting stories on this case) just stopping by solely to charge (or perhaps, worse, to also use other facilities when he had been asked not to). So the school did not know he was there and therefore could not have expected him to plug in. He should have asked permission, which he did not. So he was clearly stealing.
The OP's case has many different elements that make it less egregious, but still boils down to the host not expecting him to plug in. We can argue about whether the host should expect him to, or will in the future - but he did not know, so even renters should ask before charging their car, even when it would be fine for them to plug in a radio. The expectation difference is why a radio is OK but charging is not; it does not imply that theft status depends on quantity.
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(EDIT: You beat me too it) Same discussion, another forum:
'Theft of power' lands electric-car driver in jail - NBC News
Legality on plugging in in a non EV designated plug. What's the law? - My Nissan Leaf Forum
'Theft of power' lands electric-car driver in jail - NBC News
Legality on plugging in in a non EV designated plug. What's the law? - My Nissan Leaf Forum
cpa
Active Member
Good explanation, Chad, and we are in agreement. Although I must say that during my era of growing up and my age (5-9) we did not consider asking permission, as it either did not occur to our developing brain or it would have meant more delays and trying to talk to a really old person! I am now approaching that age where some children would consider my wife and me really old people! LOL
But here is a real-life contemporary situation for me. My sister-in-law has two homes in resort areas that she graciously lets me use when I have my continuing education classes each year. I know that (1) she does not pay or look at her bills; her late husband's secretary does all that and (2) if I were to ask her if I could trickle charge during my stay, she would look at me funny and say, "why on earth are you asking me this?"
I feel that her generosity in giving me a place to stay and cook meals is plenty. Accordingly, I charge at public charging stations whenever I can so that I have enough charge to reach the proximate Supercharger on my return trip home.
But here is a real-life contemporary situation for me. My sister-in-law has two homes in resort areas that she graciously lets me use when I have my continuing education classes each year. I know that (1) she does not pay or look at her bills; her late husband's secretary does all that and (2) if I were to ask her if I could trickle charge during my stay, she would look at me funny and say, "why on earth are you asking me this?"
I feel that her generosity in giving me a place to stay and cook meals is plenty. Accordingly, I charge at public charging stations whenever I can so that I have enough charge to reach the proximate Supercharger on my return trip home.
Not in the slightest. What does the rental agreement say in full? What makes you think that the manager knows anything about what the garage owner wants in this regard? Is the garage manager a signatory to the rental agreement? Has he even read it?
Thank you kindly.
SMH, the garage manager is the onsite agent of the owner. SMH #don'tsteal
taking what isn't yours. using something that you are unauthorized to use is stealing.
#don'tsteal and you won't have any worries over any presumption of guilt by a building's employee or owner.
RichardC
Cdn Sig & Solar Supporter
What of the situation where you are paying to park and the parking lot includes J1772 or HPWC plugs without additional charge, or where you are not paying and EV plugs are offered at no charge as an inducement (as in the case of IKEA and a number of other stores and shopping malls in this area). At what point does a presumption arise that parking includes the right to use any powered outlet in the parking space, or conversely the reasonable doubt as to criminal intent to make such use?
I am a Model S owner for less than a month and already searching for third-party EV charging stations for extended driving throughout the southwest purely for leisure. There are plenty of online resources to determine what charges are associated with various charging stations. If not, I would certainly ask before assuming the power was free, plugging in and stealing it. Anything less than asking before taking is definitely stealing in my mind. No reason to sugar coat it and give it a pass here.
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