Time for new tires on my dual motor

[DarkNightP3D]

To me it has nothing to do with handling.

It has to do with the car being able to stop dozens of feet shorter in an emergency stop so I don't hit whatever's stopped in front of me.

From 60 mph the PS4s stops in roughly 100 feet.

The MXM4s that come stock on the 18s take over 130 feet.

The Contis that come stock on the 19s are somewhere in the 120s.

Increase speed above 60 and it gets even worse for stopping distance.

(plus you're overestimating the range hit)

There are plenty of tires that can provide substantially improved stopping distances over the MXM4 without wearing out nearly as quickly as the PS4S, and that cost $100-$170 less per tire. I haven’t seen any verified testing that shows by just replacing the MXM4 tires on a standard Model 3 with PS4S tires that you’ll shave 30% off your braking distances. I bet at least 10’ of the difference just comes down to the Performance model’s larger rotors, pads and calipers. Of course it’s going to stop shorter combined with summer performance tires. Tires will make a difference, but I don’t think it’s going to be 30% of a difference in most scenarios.

I’d much rather have 15–20% more range all the time, a tire that will not wear out every 9-12 months, won’t slingshot every little stone and sand grain against the side of my car causing paint chips, and that will cost approximately half as much to replace. I’ve never been in a situation where I needed to slam on brakes and couldn’t stop in time that I would’ve been saved if I just had a different set of tires... I don’t get close to people in front of me, I pay attention and I think I’ve hit my brake pedal once in the entire 26K miles I’ve driven the car. The MXM4 tire is used on everything from Honda Accords to Lexus, BMWs, etc. Even at 130’ from 60MPH, you’re experiencing what is about the average stopping distance of most cars on the road, and better than many large SUVs and trucks. The rest of my braking is done by regen.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

Agreed. The car handles well already and for daily driver duties I'm looking into Conti Purecontact LS or Bridgestone QuietTrack.

I wish there were more options in the 20” size but we have very few choices. Even if you go to 245/35R20 you only have a handful of choices that may have LRR. I wish the T0/T1 spec tires available on other models were also available in sizes that would fit the 3. I’m leaning towards trying the Vredestein Quatrac Pro (about $160/tire) which Tire Rack calls the best handling grand touring tire available, or just trying the new Toyo Proxes Sport A/S ($162/Tire). In 245-width you can get Conti DWS06, Conti TX (it’s only H-rated but nobody is doing over 130mph in their car in the US hopefully), Bridgestone RE980 AS, etc.

 

[Knightshade]

There are plenty of tires that can provide substantially improved stopping distances over the MXM4 without wearing out nearly as quickly as the PS4S, and that cost $100-$170 less per tire. I haven’t seen any verified testing that shows by just replacing the MXM4 tires on a standard Model 3 with PS4S tires that you’ll shave 30% off your braking distances.

I have. So have lots of others.

Th
I bet at least 10’ of the difference just comes down to the Performance model’s larger rotors, pads and calipers

How much would you like to bet? I hope it's a lot, then I can buy even more TSLA shares

Because what you suggest is physically impossible.

Brakes don't stop the car- tires do.

If you think otherwise you don't really understand how or why cars stops- and I'd STRONGLY suggest you stop to read this article by a world reknowned brake engineer who explains what each part of the system does and why the only way to actually reduce braking distance is stickier tires.

GRM Pulp Friction

T
. Of course it’s going to stop shorter combined with summer performance tires. Tires will make a difference, but I don’t think it’s going to be 30% of a difference in most scenarios.

Then, again, you are provably wrong.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

I have. So have lots of others.



How much would you like to bet? I hope it's a lot, then I can buy even more TSLA shares

Because what you suggest is physically impossible.

Brakes don't stop the car- tires do.

If you think otherwise you don't really understand how or why cars stops- and I'd STRONGLY suggest you stop to read this article by a world reknowned brake engineer who explains what each part of the system does and why the only way to actually reduce braking distance is stickier tires.

GRM Pulp Friction





Then, again, you are provably wrong.

Show me where going from a PS4S to MXM4 results in a 30% increase in stopping distance on the same car. You’re giving anecdotal evidence from test results showing the difference between a Model 3 P and a regular Model 3. Of course the tires will make a difference, but the tire itself isn’t making all of the 30% plus difference. I’d also say there’s quite obviously data to suggest brakes/brake control software absolutely does matter when stopping your car. Remember how early Model 3s we’re exhibiting insanely long stopping distances? They didn’t put new tires on every model 3 to improve stopping distances... they modified the software that controls brake force. Also, unless your tests are done in the exact same place on the exact same day, time and in the same weather you’ll never get consistent test results. Differences in the type of aggregate you’re stopping on alone can make a huge difference in stopping distances.

The UHP all-season tires I mentioned will provide nearly as much grip for cornering or braking as the PS4S while having a substantially longer lifespan. I got my Model 3 to save money over an equivalent ICE vehicle. Spending $1500 a year on tires is going to have me losing a ton of money and it’s extremely energy intense to require new tires that frequently. The tires on your car are predominately made of petrochemicals, and as such have quite a large carbon footprint.

I’m not going to spend $330/tire (unmounted) for a PS4S that wears out every 12-25K miles, depending on how you drive. IMO, it’s just idiotic to spend that kind of money on tires on a compact sedan unless you’ve got more money than sense. I’ll spend less than 50% as much for tires that last 200% longer.


I’ve decided to try the all new Toyo Proxes Sport A/S that was just released a couple months ago and is supposed to be on-par with the A/S 3+, DWS 06, RE980AS, etc. It’s available in the OE size, and comes with up to a 50K mile warranty, and the best part: THEY ARE $135/tire MOUNTED. With lifetime balance, rotation, disposal fee, and road hazard: $761.64 including tax. I think I and everyone else in the world is aware of the tire’s role in stopping the car, but I’m saying I don’t have any evidence to suggest just replacing MXM4 tires with PS4S tires on the same car literally reduces the stopping distance 30% as you claimed.

Across multiple threads, I’ve seen you say how great your car is now that you switched to 4S tires. You’ve been trying to convince anyone looking for an alternative tire for two years to just keep the 4S on their car or to people who don’t have them, they should get them. You’re literally one of the only people that thinks the range is great with that tire and the 4S is the ONLY tire people should ever buy. As I’ve said and tons of others have said across multiple threads: we either don’t want to buy tires that cost $330/tire, we don’t want to buy tires every 12-25K miles, we don’t want to have to spend additional $3000+ buying a second set of wheels and snow tires for when temps drop below 40°F, or we are dissatisfied with the huge range hit we take running these tires vs. lower rolling resistance options on the market. Consumer Reports did a bunch of tests and some of the highest efficiency tires (lowest rolling resistance) also performed the best in their controlled braking, handling tests.

 

[Knightshade]

Show me where going from a PS4S to MXM4 results in a 30% increase in stopping distance on the same car. You’re giving anecdotal evidence from test results showing the difference between a Model 3 P and a regular Model 3.

No, I'm not.

A number of owners with calibrated measuring devices here have previously posted exactly those results.

On the same car.

Though since there's no other change between a P and a regular Model 3 that impacts braking distance, the factory measurements should be evidence enough even without those folks who directly tested.

Of course the tires will make a difference, but the tire itself isn’t making all of the 30% plus difference.

Yes, it factually is. Nothing else can

Look up the physics formula for stopping distance sometime.

It asks about the coefficient of friction between tire and road.

It does not ask about your brakes. At all.

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.

I’d also say there’s quite obviously data to suggest brakes/brake control software absolutely does matter when stopping your car. Remember how early Model 3s we’re exhibiting insanely long stopping distances? They didn’t put new tires on every model 3 to improve stopping distances... they modified the software that controls brake force.

You are confused.

Know what ALSO didn't fix that problem? Bigger brakes.

There was a defect in the control software. It caused the car to take longer to stop after the first time

So they fixed the bug.

It didn't let it stop shorter the first time because that's physically impossible without putting on stickier tires.

because- again- the tires are what stop the car.

You can certainly screw stuff up to make stopping distance WORSE with an ABS software bug- but you can't ever stop shorter than the tires can no matter what upgrades you make to the braking system.





If you wanna make excuses to put on cheap tires- knock yourself out. Or if it's worth having measurably longer stopping distances to save a few bucks- again totally your call.


But I'd again suggest you read the link I provided which debunks some misunderstandings you appear to have about how and why a car stops in a certain distance.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

No, I'm not.

A number of owners with calibrated measuring devices here have previously posted exactly those results.

On the same car.

Though since there's no other change between a P and a regular Model 3 that impacts braking distance, the factory measurements should be evidence enough even without those folks who directly tested.




Yes, it factually is. Nothing else can

Look up the physics formula for stopping distance sometime.

It asks about the coefficient of friction between tire and road.

It does not ask about your brakes. At all.

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.





You are confused.

Know what ALSO didn't fix that problem? Bigger brakes.

There was a defect in the control software. It caused the car to take longer to stop after the first time

So they fixed the bug.

It didn't let it stop shorter the first time because that's physically impossible without putting on stickier tires.

because- again- the tires are what stop the car.

You can certainly screw stuff up to make stopping distance WORSE with an ABS software bug- but you can't ever stop shorter than the tires can no matter what upgrades you make to the braking system.





If you wanna make excuses to put on cheap tires- knock yourself out. Or if it's worth having measurably longer stopping distances to save a few bucks- again totally your call.


But I'd again suggest you read the link I provided which debunks some misunderstandings you appear to have about how and why a car stops in a certain distance.

If stopping distances were solely dependent on tires and tires alone, you would be accurate, but as even you said there are software algorithms at play in any modern car. There are numerous factors at play when determining a vehicle’s stopping distance. The tire’s grip is one of the factors, but is by far not the ONLY factor. A tire’s grip changes depending on the surfaces it’s on. Air pressure also can influence stopping distances. Temperature does as well. So to just say well John Smith measures 132 feet in his base SR+ on MXM4 tires and I got 115 feet on my PS4S tires, doesn’t mean the tires and tires alone are responsible for the 17’ difference. The temperature, surface (asphalt, concrete, etc.), wet/dry, temperature of the brake pads/rotors, pedal force, etc. all end up determining a vehicle’s stopping distance. Unless you’re in a lab you won’t have a perfect way to measure only the difference by changing ONE variable.

A Land Rover with “terrain response” can alter its brake mapping depending on the surface it thinks it’s on. That can result in a huge difference in stopping distances on the same vehicle with the same tires. Obviously the tires didn’t change, but the braking distances did. Must be some voodoo since you claim only the tire and tire alone alters braking distances. In reality, as I’ve said, there are a ton of factors.

 

[Knightshade]

If stopping distances were solely dependent on tires and tires alone, you would be accurate

I am accurate

, but as even you said there are software algorithms at play in any modern car.

That's not what I said.

I said a software bug can cause a car to take LONGER to stop than the tires are capable of.

Tesla had such a bug that popped up on repeated stops. It still stopped "correctly" the first time though. And once they fixed the bug it went back to the original stopping distance.

The software can't magically make that distance shorter though- only stickier tires can.

There are numerous factors at play when determining a vehicle’s stopping distance. The tire’s grip is one of the factors, but is by far not the ONLY factor.

It is- 100% of the time- the ultimate limiting factor on stopping distance.

The car can not stop shorter than the tires are capable of- no matter what you do to any other part of the car.

That's why upgrading brakes doesn't reduce stopping distance, but upgrading tires does

Again I'd suggest you read the link as you appear to believe a lot of myths about how and why a car stops.

A tire’s grip changes depending on the surfaces it’s on

....I'm not sure how "surface can change tires grip" supports your claim things OTHER than tire grip matters.

. Air pressure also can influence stopping distances. Temperature does as well.

Yes. Both do so by changing the tires grip

temperature of the brake pads/rotors, pedal force, etc. all end up determining a vehicle’s stopping distance

Assuming you aren't an idiot you're going to be fully pushing the brake pedal- so no "pedal force" won't change anything.

Neither will the pads/rotors unless you start your test with overheated brakes- which again only an idiot would do.

. Unless you’re in a lab you won’t have a perfect way to measure only the difference by changing ONE variable.

Perfect? Nothing's perfect- but you can get usefully close enough pretty easily.


Use the same road, in the same weather conditions, with a calibrated measuring device, do multiple runs, and your results should provide an excellent measurement.


See also the fact that multiple car mags (doing exactly that) all get roughly the same results for stopping distance on the Model 3 with the same tires.


Everyone gets around 100 feet with the PS4s tires give or take a couple feet (including owners here who switched to them from OEM all seasons)

Everyone gets around 133 feet with the MXM4s give or take a couple feet.


Because the tires stop the car not the brakes.

 

[Knightshade]

Since you don't seem willing to educate yourself by reading the link, here's the tl;dr part most relevant.

Keep in mind the author teaches SAE master classes on braking system design, builds braking systems for major vehicle and brake manufacturing OEMs, and has literally written books on braking systems.

You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article.

Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires stop the car.

So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system's behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.

So when you insisted "some" of the braking distance difference was the brakes- it's not. It physically can't be.

It's the tires. 100% of it.

 

[Gasaraki]

I went onto america's tire. I typed in model 3, 18 inch wheels, all season, Y speed rating, and "best" category. Only two tires popped up. If I also hit the "performance" category a couple others pop up including the Pilot Sports. Looking at the specs the only difference seems to be the Pilot Sports use a softer rubber. This does translate to a slightly better ride but also faster wear. The difference might not even be noticeable to someone like me who spends 95% of my time on the freeway with AP engaged. I'll be keeping the Performance mark ticked now though, I didn't realize those were "all-season" too.

I may be waiting just long enough to actually see these come out.

The primacies I am replacing are an all around lower quality tire than all 3.

You can't tell the performance of a tire from specs at all.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

M

I am accurate



That's not what I said.

I said a software bug can cause a car to take LONGER to stop than the tires are capable of.

Tesla had such a bug that popped up on repeated stops. It still stopped "correctly" the first time though. And once they fixed the bug it went back to the original stopping distance.

The software can't magically make that distance shorter though- only stickier tires can.




It is- 100% of the time- the ultimate limiting factor on stopping distance.

The car can not stop shorter than the tires are capable of- no matter what you do to any other part of the car.

That's why upgrading brakes doesn't reduce stopping distance, but upgrading tires does

Again I'd suggest you read the link as you appear to believe a lot of myths about how and why a car stops.




....I'm not sure how "surface can change tires grip" supports your claim things OTHER than tire grip matters.



Yes. Both do so by changing the tires grip





Assuming you aren't an idiot you're going to be fully pushing the brake pedal- so no "pedal force" won't change anything.

Neither will the pads/rotors unless you start your test with overheated brakes- which again only an idiot would do.





Perfect? Nothing's perfect- but you can get usefully close enough pretty easily.


Use the same road, in the same weather conditions, with a calibrated measuring device, do multiple runs, and your results should provide an excellent measurement.


See also the fact that multiple car mags (doing exactly that) all get roughly the same results for stopping distance on the Model 3 with the same tires.


Everyone gets around 100 feet with the PS4s tires give or take a couple feet (including owners here who switched to them from OEM all seasons)

Everyone gets around 133 feet with the MXM4s give or take a couple feet.


Because the tires stop the car not the brakes.

So can you provide me actual data showing this other than your unproven anecdotes? You keep saying “everyone” does this and everyone does that. Where is the evidence of this?

 

[Knightshade]

M
So can you provide me actual data showing this other than your unproven anecdotes? You keep saying “everyone” does this and everyone does that. Where is the evidence of this?

Not clear which evidence you're looking for.

Are you still confused and thinking bigger brakes change stopping distance?

if so I gave you plenty of evidence in a 5 page long technically essay from an industry expert.

I think we need to establish you understand that was wrong- do you?



If you mean the large braking distance difference between model 3s on PS4s tires versus those on MXM4s I mentioned that appears in literally every published braking test of the model 3 ever

Though not every publisher tests from the same speed as every other- they generally do test from the same speed WITHIN publishers- for example Car and Driver tests fro 70 mph, and got 147 feet on PS4s tires, and 176 feet on MXM4s.... while Motortrend tests from 60, and got 99 feet on PS4s, and 128 feet on MXM4s.

Roughly 30 feet difference in both cases though.

About the same results as owners here have found.

Like I told you to start with.

 

[holmgang]

so.... we have reason to believe that mxm4 are 20% more efficient than ps4s , but no reason to believe that ps4s are more grippy than mxm4? and so the ps4s are only sold because people like to pay more money for fun and enjoy higher road noise and stone chips?

 

[DarkNightP3D]

I’ll continue to say your hypothesis is flawed because it’s based on the premise that tires and only tires matter, when obviously brake force, and all of the other variables (temp, air pressure, etc.)

Not clear which evidence you're looking for.

Are you still confused and thinking bigger brakes change stopping distance?

if so I gave you plenty of evidence in a 5 page long technically essay from an industry expert.

I think we need to establish you understand that was wrong- do you?



If you mean the large braking distance difference between model 3s on PS4s tires versus those on MXM4s I mentioned that appears in literally every published braking test of the model 3 ever

Though not every publisher tests from the same speed as every other- they generally do test from the same speed WITHIN publishers- for example Car and Driver tests fro 70 mph, and got 147 feet on PS4s tires, and 176 feet on MXM4s.... while Motortrend tests from 60, and got 99 feet on PS4s, and 128 feet on MXM4s.

Roughly 30 feet difference in both cases though.

About the same results as owners here have found.

Like I told you to start with.

as I said, you cannot compare a test from MotorTrend with test that you do on your own. The results could be off 5-15% depending on the road surface, ambient temperature, etc. I’m looking for evidence in a back to back test done by someone who literally tested their car with the MXM4 tires, then immediately tested it after dismounting old tires and mounting new PS4S tires. I could get a drastically different result in the same car on two different roads with that being the only variable. What do you not understand? Road surface friction is just as important as the tire‘s coefficient of friction. You could have the highest friction tire on ice and it sure isn’t stopping.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

so.... we have reason to believe that mxm4 are 20% more efficient than ps4s , but no reason to believe that ps4s are more grippy than mxm4? and so the ps4s are only sold because people like to pay more money for fun and enjoy higher road noise and stone chips?

it’s funny because the same people arguing that the PS4S has “great range” and is at most 8% less efficient than the MXM4 is now claiming they reduce stopping distances by 30%!

I can give you evidence all day lot of people putting PS4S tires on their car and seeing an immediate 20% loss of range, yet nobody can seem to find anything other than one person claiming their stopping distance shrank drastically based on their assumption that automotive magazines publishes test results can be cross compared between publications that don’t share a testing course, driver, ambient conditions vary, etc.

I’m also saying that unlike Knightshade’s assertion, there’s more than ONE good tire choice for the M3. If you care about anything other than skidpad grip or a claimed shorter stopping distance, such as longer lasting tires (better for the environment, less expensive), improving your vehicle’s efficiency (again better for the environment, your wallet, and the car’s motors and battery) you may want to look at any tire other than the PS4S which is a performance tire first and foremost, and efficiency is a way distant priority. Edmunds tested the 19” and 18” wheels back to back and saw a substantial improvement in skidpad grip (.93g vs .85g), but the braking difference was a measly 5 feet. Unfortunately nobody has then out the 20” wheels and tires on the same car to see what improvements there are in handling and braking. You cannot just say “well the Performance 3 as tested by joe blow stopped in 99 feet, and pulled a .97g on the skidpad.” Not only does the P3D weigh 250lbs more then the SR+ tested by Edmunds, but it has a lowered suspension with less travel (less dive). You really need to test all three tires on one car, or at least identical cars with baseline tests to confirm they handle identically with each set of tires.

 

[Knightshade]

I’ll continue to say your hypothesis is flawed because it’s based on the premise that tires and only tires matter, when obviously brake force, and all of the other variables (temp, air pressure, etc.)

The only way temp and air pressure matter is as relates to the tires though.

So my premise only the tires matter is exactly correct

"brake force" does not matter because if you're measuring braking distance you're SLAMMING on the brakes, meaning you're at max force in every test.


Your failure to understand what actually stops the car continues to cripple your understanding here.

Read the link.

as I said, you cannot compare a test from MotorTrend with test that you do on your own.

Nor did I.

I compared a test MotorTrend did with a test that motortrend did

Both on model 3s, but with different tires.


You again appear to not read, or understand, most of what you're trying to comment on.

II could get a drastically different result in the same car on two different roads with that being the only variable. What do you not understand?

Why you think professional brake testing is done on random different roads would be one thing I don't understand.

Since that'd be dumb and isn't what they actually do.

Road surface friction is just as important as the tire‘s coefficient of friction. You could have the highest friction tire on ice and it sure isn’t stopping.

The car magazines test all their cars on the same professional testing surface

So again you're making up nonsense to try and justify your lack of understanding that ultimately tires are what determine stopping distance- and the PS4s will stop you 20-30 feet shorter (YMMV a bit depending on speed testing from and such) than the MXM4s will.

 

[Knightshade]

it’s funny because the same people arguing that the PS4S has “great range” and is at most 8% less efficient than the MXM4 is now claiming they reduce stopping distances by 30%!

I'm unclear why you think those would need to be a 1:1 relation since one is basic rolling resistance and the other is based on the coeeficient of sliding friction.

And the coefficient of rolling resistance is generally much smaller than the coefficient of sliding friction.


Can you explain the math and physics under which it would be 1:1 despite that making no actual sense, scientifically?

I can give you evidence all day lot of people putting PS4S tires on their car and seeing an immediate 20% loss of range

Awesome! Please do so!

, yet nobody can seem to find anything other than one person claiming their stopping distance shrank drastically based on their assumption that automotive magazines publishes test results can be cross compared between publications that don’t share a testing course, driver, ambient conditions vary, etc.

Unclear if you're just outright lying now- or you just didn't read/understand what was actually given to you.

Because, again, nobody did what you claim

Instead you were shown car mag results compared to results on different tires from the same car magazine

Both on a model 3.

One on MXM4s, one on PS4s.

Both on the SAME test track too.

Across multiple car mags, ALL showing roughly the same ~30 foot stopping distance between the two tires.

I’m also saying that unlike Knightshade’s assertion, there’s more than ONE good tire choice for the M3.

Again you're lying about what was said.

There's lots of GOOD choices.

There's only one best choice for any given criteria though.

If above-freezing stopping distance is your criteria for example the PS4s is much much better than the MXM4- objectively and factually.

If driving up a mountain in snow is your criteria- the PS4s is a terrible choice- a real snow tire is what you want (so also not the MXM4)


To me, personally, stopping my car a couple dozen feet shorter in an emergency is way more important than saving 20 cents a night in charging costs because I used slightly more electricity.


YMMV.

Edmunds tested the 19” and 18” wheels back to back and saw a substantial improvement in skidpad grip (.93g vs .85g), but the braking difference was a measly 5 feet.

Because they are both mediocre all-season tires....meaning they're kinda crappy in all seasons.

Winter tires will always beat them handily below freezing, and summer tires will always beat them handily above it.

Unfortunately nobody has then out the 20” wheels and tires on the same car to see what improvements there are in handling and braking.

Again-

Car and Driver tests from 70 mph, and got 147 feet on PS4s tires, and 176 feet on MXM4s.... while Motortrend tests from 60, and got 99 feet on PS4s, and 128 feet on MXM4s.


For both magazines they tested on the same road surface so your difference was the tires.

Entirely the tires.


Because the tires are what actually stop the car.

 

[DarkNightP3D]

The only way temp and air pressure matter is as relates to the tires though.

So my premise only the tires matter is exactly correct

"brake force" does not matter because if you're measuring braking distance you're SLAMMING on the brakes, meaning you're at max force in every test.


Your failure to understand what actually stops the car continues to cripple your understanding here.

Read the link.




Nor did I.

I compared a test MotorTrend did with a test that motortrend did

Both on model 3s, but with different tires.


You again appear to not read, or understand, most of what you're trying to comment on.




Why you think professional brake testing is done on random different roads would be one thing I don't understand.

Since that'd be dumb and isn't what they actually do.






The car magazines test all their cars on the same professional testing surface

So again you're making up nonsense to try and justify your lack of understanding that ultimately tires are what determine stopping distance- and the PS4s will stop you 20-30 feet shorter (YMMV a bit depending on speed testing from and such) than the MXM4s will.

You continue to go on and on about “only the tire matters”...

However it’s a cause and effect relationship. You can’t say “only the tire matters” when you’re testing a car’s stopping distance as that’s flawed thinking. There are numerous variables including temperature, road surface, suspension tuning, ABS control software, vehicle weight, weight distribution, etc.

The Model 3 SR+ tested weighs less than the LR AWD

I'm unclear why you think those would need to be a 1:1 relation since one is basic rolling resistance and the other is based on the coeeficient of sliding friction.

And the coefficient of rolling resistance is generally much smaller than the coefficient of sliding friction.


Can you explain the math and physics under which it would be 1:1 despite that making no actual sense, scientifically?






Awesome! Please do so!




Unclear if you're just outright lying now- or you just didn't read/understand what was actually given to you.

Because, again, nobody did what you claim

Instead you were shown car mag results compared to results on different tires from the same car magazine

Both on a model 3.

One on MXM4s, one on PS4s.

Both on the SAME test track too.

Across multiple car mags, ALL showing roughly the same ~30 foot stopping distance between the two tires.





Again you're lying about what was said.

There's lots of GOOD choices.

There's only one best choice for any given criteria though.

If above-freezing stopping distance is your criteria for example the PS4s is much much better than the MXM4- objectively and factually.

If driving up a mountain in snow is your criteria- the PS4s is a terrible choice- a real snow tire is what you want (so also not the MXM4)


To me, personally, stopping my car a couple dozen feet shorter in an emergency is way more important than saving 20 cents a night in charging costs because I used slightly more electricity.


YMMV.





Because they are both mediocre all-season tires....meaning they're kinda crappy in all seasons.

Winter tires will always beat them handily below freezing, and summer tires will always beat them handily above it.





Again-

Car and Driver tests from 70 mph, and got 147 feet on PS4s tires, and 176 feet on MXM4s.... while Motortrend tests from 60, and got 99 feet on PS4s, and 128 feet on MXM4s.


For both magazines they tested on the same road surface so your difference was the tires.

Entirely the tires.


Because the tires are what actually stop the car.

Again, you’re intentionally missing the point that there’s a direct cause and effect relationship between all of the numerous variables I have mentioned and the tires. You’re basically saying well only the tires actually matter, when in reality what matters is the environmental conditions (temp, wet/dry, road surface).

Additionally, I have laid out about 50 reasons why the PS4S tire is NOT the be all end all of tires for everyone. Those reasons include many important things such as environmental sustainability, price, RANGE (a 20% increase in energy consumption means a 20% decrease in how far you can drive, which to most people makes a huge difference), longevity (related to cost and carbon footprint), not having to buy two sets of tires a year, etc.

The PS4S is the best tire for this car if you solely care about one thing and one thing only: in warm weather, you will have excellent at the limit handling and maybe a slightly shorter stopping distance (only on certain surfaces and only compared to certain tires). There are many tires that can achieve similar results to the 4S, without being ridiculously overpriced and wearing out in a few short months. The Pilot Sport A/S 3+ will last longer than the 4S, costs 50% less and will provide you with nearly the same level of braking and handling performance, as will numerous other UHP tires available for these cars. As I said before, I have seen your posts on numerous different threads on this forum going back two years where you try to convince everyone to just go with the PS4S and nothing else and that their opinion on range, cost, or anything else is stupid because their car may stop 5’ shorter... To many of us, braking distance is important but not the one and only thing that matters when picking a tire. If there was such a danger to the safety of the public and Tesla owners by equipping their car with MXM4 tires, I don’t think they’d be the OE tire for everything from Honda Accords, Model 3, 3-series, various Mercedes models, etc.


Going to the C&D track test results... were they done in the same day, on the same track, on the same car? If not, it’s comparing apples and oranges. The 4S will stop shorter simply because it’s super sticky. The Performance 3 has a different suspension set up that’s 1” lower than the other Model 3s. That itself likely also contributes at least some to the improved handling and braking performance. Additionally the cars you are using as comparisons were not both LR AWD models. One was a early-production Model 3 SR+ and the other is a later production Performance. I’d like to see back to back results on one track on one car by someone who literally swapped their tires and did a test to see the difference. You said there were multiple people who had tested this out on this forum, so where are their test results? You can use apps like draggy to test stopping distance.

 

[Knightshade]

You continue to go on and on about “only the tire matters”...

Because it's a fact, and how physics actually works.

You continue to deny those- which is odd.

Especially when I've cited subject matter experts that you refuse to even bother reading.

The Model 3 SR+ tested weighs less than the LR AWD

Again you're pretending you weren't given multiple other sources where they tested nothing but LR cars.

Why do you keep lying about stuff anybody can go 3 posts up and see you are lying about?

You’re basically saying well only the tires actually matter, when in reality what matters is the environmental conditions (temp, wet/dry, road surface).

Because those only matter in relation to the tire

And you keep ignoring the fact that the multiple tests I've cited were done on professional test tracks in controlled conditions

You keep acting like Motortrend tested the PS4s in the desert in perfect weather but tested the MXM4s on top of Everest in a blizzard or something.

It's bathshit crazy attempts to continue refusing to understand what actually stops a car and that your basic facts are wrong.

Additionally, I have laid out about 50 reasons why the PS4S tire is NOT the be all end all of tires for everyone.

Which is a bullshit strawman argument nobody ever made.

I award you zero points.

, RANGE (a 20% increase in energy consumption

You said you had lots of evidence for that number.

Then were asked to provide it.

Where is it?

means a 20% decrease in how far you can drive, which to most people makes a huge difference),

Also a lie.

Most people drive less than 30 miles a day.

The shortest range model 3 goes over 200 on a full charge. 20% would make no difference at all to most people

maybe a slightly shorter stopping distance

If by slightly you mean dozens of feet shorter compared to the MXM4 (or lots of other all seasons), sure.

As I said before, I have seen your posts on numerous different threads on this forum going back two years where you try to convince everyone to just go with the PS4S and nothing else

Another lie.

In fact I've specifically recommended the A/S 3+ to a bunch of folks who live places it actually gets cold, but not so much it's worth running 2 sets of tires.

What I recommend to nobody is they stick with the crappy MXM4s though.

because their car may stop 5’ shorter...

More like 30 feet shorter from the numerous mag tests.

The Performance 3 has a different suspension set up that’s 1” lower than the other Model 3s. That itself likely also contributes at least some to the improved handling and braking performance.

No, it does not. Because the suspension doesn't change the friction coefficient between tire and road during maximum braking.

Again you fail to understand how and why cars actually stop and you refuse to read the article that explains it.

See also the folks who've put PS4s tires on their regular Ps or LR AWDs and gotten about the same results the P3D+ guys get for stopping.

Additionally the cars you are using as comparisons were not both LR AWD models. One was a early-production Model 3 SR+ and the other is a later production Performance

You've told this lie twice in the same post. Remarkable.


I cited multiple different magazines who did not test the SR+ in the comparison.

Why keep repeating the same easily debunked lie man?

 

[grmdl3]

Good points raised by both sides, and you've given us a lot to think about. Perhaps now it's time to take your debate offline?

 

[dfwatt]

Speaking of those (and the PS4S) this might be a useful reference for some folks

High performance summer tire test - Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperSport vs. Michelin Pilot Sport 4S vs. Continental SportContact 6 vs. Toyo Proxes Sport + others

For sure this is the most useful content on this thread which unfortunately is dominated by somebody wants to bash the PS4s as a rock throwing and range destroying crappy tire. But the interesting thing about what you posted is how the Super Sport Formula 1 Goodyear Tire actually outperformed the PS4, although at significant cost in ride and Noise. My car currently with 265 / 30 in front and 275 / 30 in the rear rides about as firmly as I could stand in terms of long distance driving. Does anyone have any information about how well the Supersport Goodyear's hold up on the track?