To FSD or not FSD….that is the question…

[K5TRX]

I would not recommend purchasing it for $10k. I can count on one hand the number of times I have actually used any feature that is not part of standard autopilot and found it useful...

I believe you. It is just so different from my experience. I used Full Self Driving Capabilities long before I got the FSD Beta:

• Navigate on Autopilot: It enters from the on-ramps, signaling and accelerating. At off-ramps, it signals and turns off.
• Auto Lane Change: Moves you to the correct lane, amazing.
• Auto Park: People have to park so tight at work. I let it parallel park while I am organizing my stuff.
• Traffic Lights: Just keeps getting better: goes when the light changes green, stops for yellow.
• City Streets: This last feature for FSD is amazing but has a long way to go.

I do use Summon when someone parks too close but not often. Smart Summon is just for fun.

But when will a Full Self Driving vision only system handle all the edge cases? That is, when will an optical camera:

• See through snowpack or leaves covering the road?
• See through fog, sleet, snow, or rain?
• Not be blinded by early morning or late afternoon sun or glare off a wet road?

When the laws of physics change.

 

[BritneySpears]

That's not the case with Tesla FSD. I got the HW3 computer for free on my Model 3. Others are getting free camera upgrades and HW3 computers on their Model S's and X's.

I am betting FSD will require HW4 and better cameras yet. I bet we get it for free.

But Full Self Driving will work in every edge and corner case. FSD will have to work in rainstorms, sleet, hail, snow, sunsets blinding the B pillar cameras, and leaves covering the pavement.

Physics prevents vision only from seeing through solids.

FSD does not mean L2, L3, L4, or L5. It means FSD. There's a whole other "I'm suing Tesla over FSD" somewhere on this forum to read about those offended by this thing. The current definition of L5 may not even be the spec automakers will certify to. There's no compliance certification process even in place. Right now you engage AP and it stays in the lane so it's "full self driving" for a good 30 seconds or so. Certainly, FSD will be better than that as per all the beta testing but don't hold your breath expecting every edge and corner case where you can nap in the car.

 

[PDX-Y]

FSD does not mean L2, L3, L4, or L5. It means FSD.

Yeah, pretty much exactly. The SAE just invented some numbers at some point, those things do very little to categorize products as they evolved in the actual market. I mean, there's a huge, huge, HUGE gap in capabilities between 1970's cruise control and modern Tesla FSD 10.5, yet both are "Level 2 Autonomy". Similar confusion comes from the ability of other manufacturers to cheat and claim "Level 3" capabilities based on extensive HD mapping and geofencing.

And on the other end of the scale, what Waymo is deploying in Arizona (or Cruise's midnight shuttles in the Bay Area), where a driverless car is still monitored by a human network of operators and can be remotely recovered from confusing or unhandled situations, is clearly "level 4" despite being about as much autonomy[1] as anyone would reasonably want. It may be that SAE Level 5, as originally designed, is never actually deployed anywhere.

[1] Again, though, within a strictly geofenced area. And in Cruise's case, timing the service to avoid almost all traffic.

 

[CDennis100]

If you watch the forums you’ll know. Trust me.

Yea and I think there will be a max rush for many to buy. I’m pretty sure I’d buy EAP right now if avail…esp for 4-5k. Something about $$$$$ for FSD tells me too much and an emphatic “no”.

 

[golfcart]

I believe you. It is just so different from my experience. I used Full Self Driving Capabilities long before I got the FSD Beta:

• Navigate on Autopilot: It enters from the on-ramps, signaling and accelerating. At off-ramps, it signals and turns off.
• Auto Lane Change: Moves you to the correct lane, amazing.
• Auto Park: People have to park so tight at work. I let it parallel park while I am organizing my stuff.
• Traffic Lights: Just keeps getting better: goes when the light changes green, stops for yellow.
• City Streets: This last feature for FSD is amazing but has a long way to go.

I do use Summon when someone parks too close but not often. Smart Summon is just for fun.

But when will a Full Self Driving vision only system handle all the edge cases? That is, when will an optical camera:

• See through snowpack or leaves covering the road?
• See through fog, sleet, snow, or rain?
• Not be blinded by early morning or late afternoon sun or glare off a wet road?

When the laws of physics change.

Yeah they are all cool features but I just don't use them because they are all things I can easily do for myself since I am still required to pay attention and have my hands on the wheel. That's all I'm saying. Auto-park is kind of handy sometimes I will say that, I tend to over-rotate when I am backing in for some reason and it takes care of that for me. Honestly, I wouldn't pay $10k for it if it all worked perfectly (even in the city) unless it let me not pay attention and send the car off on its own. Might pay for a month of FSD if I had a big road trip planned or something... that's about it.

 

[golfcart]

FSD does not mean L2, L3, L4, or L5. It means FSD. There's a whole other "I'm suing Tesla over FSD" somewhere on this forum to read about those offended by this thing. The current definition of L5 may not even be the spec automakers will certify to. There's no compliance certification process even in place. Right now you engage AP and it stays in the lane so it's "full self driving" for a good 30 seconds or so. Certainly, FSD will be better than that as per all the beta testing but don't hold your breath expecting every edge and corner case where you can nap in the car.

My gripe is that FSD (back in the 2017/2018 time frame) was advertised as "In the future, Model 3 will be capable of conducting trips with no action required by the person in the drivers seat." while EAP was Auto Lane Change, Auto Steer, Auto Park, and Summon. Sure, "in the future" is ambiguous but one could reasonably expect that the feature they are selling you would be available at some point during the useful lifetime of the vehicle.

Anyone who bought FSD in the last year or two I have no real pity for but the earlier adopters who were sold a different vision have a legitimate gripe in my opinion.

 

[BritneySpears]

My gripe is that FSD (back in the 2017/2018 time frame) was advertised as "In the future, Model 3 will be capable of conducting trips with no action required by the person in the drivers seat." while EAP was Auto Lane Change, Auto Steer, Auto Park, and Summon. Sure, "in the future" is ambiguous but one could reasonably expect that the feature they are selling you would be available at some point during the useful lifetime of the vehicle.

Anyone who bought FSD in the last year or two I have no real pity for but the earlier adopters who were sold a different vision have a legitimate gripe in my opinion.

I see your gripe. Thanks. I think you'd have to show Tesla certified a non-compliant vehicle for the gripe to clearly have strong teeth. There was never any certification or any specification to comply to. The advertisement is arguable misleading though and there's probably some middle ground satisfaction somewhere.

 

[Terminator857]

FSD does not mean L2, L3, L4, or L5. It means FSD. There's a whole other "I'm suing Tesla over FSD" somewhere on this forum to read about those offended by this thing. The current definition of L5 may not even be the spec automakers will certify to. There's no compliance certification process even in place. Right now you engage AP and it stays in the lane so it's "full self driving" for a good 30 seconds or so. Certainly, FSD will be better than that as per all the beta testing but don't hold your breath expecting every edge and corner case where you can nap in the car.

Elon has clarified more than once that FSD does mean L5. He is of course completely wrong in selling cars with this claim.

 

[EVNow]

Elon has clarified more than once that FSD does mean L5. He is of course completely wrong in selling cars with this claim.

He has done nothing of that sort. There have been several discussions on this.

 

[Terminator857]

He has done nothing of that sort. ...

There are many references that disagree with that thought.

Elon Musk says Tesla's Full Self-Driving tech will have Level 5 autonomy by the end of 2021

Tesla's CEO also confirmed that customers won't be able to transfer previous FSD purchases between old and new cars.

www.cnet.com

Elon Musk: Tesla Will Have Level 5 Self-Driving Cars This Year

Tesla will have essentially fully autonomous self-driving vehicles this year, CEO Elon Musk said in a video recorded for a Chinese AI conference.

www.forbes.com

Elon Musk clarifies Tesla's plan for level 5 fully autonomous driving: 2 years away from sleeping in the car

Ever since Tesla released its second generation Autopilot hardware and started offering an option called “full self-driving capability”, there’s been...

electrek.co

 

[Daniel in SD]

He has done nothing of that sort. There have been several discussions on this.

"Nothing of the sort" is quite a stretch. FSD means the hardware is L5 capable and the software will be L5 after it's validated (which may not happen).

 

[golfcart]

I see your gripe. Thanks. I think you'd have to show Tesla certified a non-compliant vehicle for the gripe to clearly have strong teeth. There was never any certification or any specification to comply to. The advertisement is arguable misleading though and there's probably some middle ground satisfaction somewhere

Wish this had a date on it.

 

[EVNow]

There are many references that disagree with that opinion.

Oh yes - all those media companies are very truthful when it comes to reporting. Show me actual quotes not media reports.

For example - the first link is apparently about the earnings call. So, you should be able to get the direct quote from transcripts. All they actaully quote is "at least 100% safer than a human driver,".

 

[EVNow]

"Nothing of the sort" is quite a stretch. FSD means the hardware is L5 capable and the software will be L5 after it's validated (which may not happen).

Thats your interpretation - very far from the claimed "Elon has clarified more than once that FSD does mean L5.".

Show me actual clarifications - apparently more than once - that "FSD does mean L5". Should be easy, peeze - if true, right ?

 

[Terminator857]

Oh yes - all those media companies are very truthful when it comes to reporting. Show me actual quotes not media reports.

For example - the first link is apparently about the earnings call. So, you should be able to get the direct quote from transcripts. All they actaully quote is "at least 100% safer than a human driver,".

He has stated it directly. I would provide the quotes, but then you would just state more nonsense and I wouldn't feel any gratification for my work.

 

[EVNow]

He has stated it directly. I would provide the quotes, but then you would just state more nonsense and II wouldn't feel any gratification for my work.

LOL. Show me quotes or withdraw your lie.

The closest, AFAIK, is when he said "yes" to a 3 part question. This has been beaten to death in several threads earlier.

 

[Terminator857]

LOL. Show me quotes or withdraw your lie.

The closest, AFAIK, is when he said "yes" to a 3 part question. This has been beaten to death in several threads earlier.

You should be ashamed of your many lies on this forum. At least I post references and not whimsical nonsense of a die hard fan who has placed his life savings in Tesla stock. You show zero credibility.

 

[diplomat33]

I mean, there's a huge, huge, HUGE gap in capabilities between 1970's cruise control and modern Tesla FSD 10.5, yet both are "Level 2 Autonomy".

No. 1970's cruise control is classified as level 1, not level 2. So, those two systems are definitely not both "level 2 autonomy".

FSD does not mean L2, L3, L4, or L5. It means FSD.

This is is circular logic and it makes no sense. L2, L3, L4 and L5 is how we classify different types of automated driving systems. So all automated driving systems must be either L2, L3, L4 or L5. Therefore, Tesla's FSD has to be one of those levels.

 

[diplomat33]

You should be ashamed of your many lies on this forum. At least I post references and not whimsical nonsense of a die hard fan who has placed his life savings in Tesla stock. You show zero credibility.

 

[EVNow]

You show zero credibility.

Lol - so this is what you say when I ask for proof. Bravo.

Anyway, reported.