Torque and acceleration compared to Model S

[Shadnic]

Hi folks,

I have a model S (standard old RWD version) and am considering trading in for a M3 since I need a smaller call to manage my new driveway/garage.

I looooooooove EVs for the sensation of torque they offer on acceleration. I know my RWD model S isn't even near top of the Tesla power pyramid, but I still get an incredibly satisfying sense of speed when needing to accelerate.

I've test driven a RWD M3 a few times (yesterday I got a good hour of driving it around), and it is no doubt very fun to drive. There's a cute little sense of zip every time I accelerated even a little, but I never felt the same "push back in your chair" feeling as I do in my S, even when trying to get up to speed quickly on the freeway. I know the 0-60 times are almost the same (5.4 vs 5.3), just the way the speed built felt very different.

I didn't get a chance to try out an AWD M3, but curious how that feels in comparison? I know AWD Model S's feel significantly different. It's a price hike for sure, and I wouldn't want to base my decision just on that small feeling but I'd love to know from anyone else who maybe previously had an S or a RWD M3 how it compares just in general sense of power.

 

[DirtyT3sla]

From my understanding, every 3 that's not a P really holds back the torque in the 0-20 or 30ish MPH range to enable the P to have the better torque feeling and faster 0-60 time, so that's probably why it's not as punchy. I have the AWD, and I've never been in a P, but I can tell there's artificial hold back. Especially when I'm going 30-40 and step on it...oh buddy it feels so much better.

 

[Paddy3101]

Not driven a non-P 3, but have had a couple of S as loaners. The P definitely gives you a shove, and can be 'mildly uncomfortable' if you aren't expecting it. Not quite the P100DL moment, but up there with a P90DL.

Looking at Dyno graphs, the biggest difference between the P and the Non-P is in the initial, lower speeds (0-45mph) where it's not held back. The AWD torque/power curve is much flatter, wheres the P gives a much bigger shove off the line, and then drops down to AWD levels as the speed builds.

The RWD has significantly less 'go' than the AWD 5s->4s->3s. Still fast for it's class, especially compared to ICE vehicles.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

but I never felt the same "push back in your chair" feeling as I do in my S, even when trying to get up to speed quickly on the freeway.

Torque and acceleration are constant in the AWD and P3D (and the RWD too) between about 4mph and about 45mph. The instrumented data shows no "holdback" of torque (from that particular vehicle's maximum torque) in the 5-40/45mph region.

The main difference vs. the Model S/X is the "jerk" off the line. ALL Model 3s "ramp" the torque from 0 to maximum in the first 0.1 to 0.2 seconds. That is a long time! However, after the car has traveled about 8-12 inches, the car will be at maximum acceleration (at about 4mph).

But the Model S (probably due to the induction motor rather than the permanent magnet motor) can generate maximum torque nearly immediately. This results in the feel of quite a "kick" (jerk - the rate of change of acceleration), from what I understand (I've never ridden in one, I have just read about this difference and seen instrumented results).

I would think if you find the AWD S to be significantly different than the normal RWD S, you may well be quite satisfied with a Model 3 AWD - it sounds like you might be more interested in acceleration in the middle range of speeds - not the jerk off the line. In that respect, I think the step up from Model 3 RWD to AWD to P is similar to the steps up for progressively more powerful Model S vehicles. However, the jerk will never be there on Model 3.

 

[Shadnic]

I would think if you find the AWD S to be significantly different than the normal RWD S, you may well be quite satisfied with a Model 3 AWD - it sounds like you might be more interested in acceleration in the middle range of speeds - not the jerk off the line. In that respect, I think the step up from Model 3 RWD to AWD to P is similar to the steps up for progressively more powerful Model S vehicles. However, the jerk will never be there on Model 3.

Oh man, these answers are so above and beyond what I was expecting, thank you all so much!

I think you may be right in terms of what type of acceleration I'm after. It doesn't have to jerk me at 0 but I like the fluid, constant, feeling of speed as you're getting up to highway speed, like the 5-40 range (and beyond that is great too). It's kind of that feeling when a roller coaster speeds you up very suddenly.

I definitely know I won't be splurging on a P model, but knowing that AWD has pretty good constant torque/acceleration is promising. I'm excited to try it out!

Do you find yourself still feeling like there's power to it even after driving it for (however long you've had it)?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Do you find yourself still feeling like there's power to it even after driving it for (however long you've had it)?

I have a Performance, and now it feels slow. I've had it a year.

It's only $2k to get the Performance (unclear whether it still is, or for how long). Really no reason not to if you can find an inventory car matching your requirements. There are two thousand reasons, of course, but ease of resale, enjoyment, etc...

 

[diver110]

FWIW, I compared the S, X, and 3. I drive a Porsche Cayenne turbo. All were faster than the Porsche (in the versions I drove). The Porsche handled a bit better than the X and S (closer call with the S than the X). The 3 (highest performance version) was better across the board than the Cayenne, though with much less comfortable seats.

 

[Shadnic]

It's only $2k to get the Performance (unclear whether it still is, or for how long). Really no reason not to if you can find an inventory car matching your requirements. There are two thousand reasons, of course, but ease of resale, enjoyment, etc...

Wait a sec....am I missing something somewhere?? On Tesla's site the only option to upgrade to performance over AWD is a whole "performance package" for $8k more. Is there an off-menu option to just beef up the power for less than the whole package deal?

Even used inventory cars are about a 5k difference between AWD->Performance.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Wait a sec....am I missing something somewhere?? On Tesla's site the only option to upgrade to performance over AWD is a whole "performance package" for $8k more. Is there an off-menu option to just beef up the power for less than the whole package deal?

Even used inventory cars are about a 5k difference between AWD->Performance.

Check out the thread in the ordering forum called "M3P-." Through all of July, it was possible to get a Stealth Performance "off-menu" (well, it was sort of on-menu briefly, but was off-menu for a significant period thereafter).

M3P-

People have also been taking delivery in August. Allegedly they cannot be "built to order."

Those were going for just $2k more than the AWD.

There are a lot of threads here with sad-face AWD owners (though it's kind of silly since AWD is plenty fast). It is probably worth persistently pursuing this to see what can happen, PM someone in that thread who has a good owner advisor, or whatever. In California I'd think you could make something happen but things are constantly changing.

 

[Shadnic]

People have also been taking delivery in August. Allegedly they cannot be "built to order."

In California I'd think you could make something happen but things are constantly changing.

Oh wow, I had no idea this existed. That's... really good to know - and almost exactly what I'd ideally want. I'll have to look into this. I assume no custom orders means they just...made a certain number of these and are selling them off? Considering I'm waiting to hear back from Tesla about trade in value of my car I'm not sure how quickly I can act on it, but I'll explore. Thank you so much for the tip!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Oh wow, I had no idea this existed. That's... really good to know - and almost exactly what I'd ideally want. I'll have to look into this. I assume no custom orders means they just...made a certain number of these and are selling them off? Considering I'm waiting to hear back from Tesla about trade in value of my car I'm not sure how quickly I can act on it, but I'll explore. Thank you so much for the tip!

Check out the other thread. My guess is the immediate response would be to try to steer you to the P3D+, but I would try to be persistent. If you're not in a rush, I bet you can get them to hook you up...unless they ACTUALLY stop making them...it's very unclear right now.

 

[neogeek]

Oh wow, I had no idea this existed. That's... really good to know - and almost exactly what I'd ideally want. I'll have to look into this. I assume no custom orders means they just...made a certain number of these and are selling them off? Considering I'm waiting to hear back from Tesla about trade in value of my car I'm not sure how quickly I can act on it, but I'll explore. Thank you so much for the tip!

I just picked my P3- up about a week ago. The folks at UTC Tesla helped me find one. You have to act quick though. I don't know if it is marketing tactics or what but the day I ordered mine they had 4 in SoCal in the morning. By the time I actually pulled the trigger, I apparently bought the last one in the config I wanted. (midnight silver / black interior / aero wheels). Totally worth the 2k.

I also have a theory that they made all these crazy configurations right before the end of the quarter to try and boost sales. You could take a gamble and if they don't have the config you want now, wait until just before the end of the year and see what comes up in their inventory.

 

[eustachio]

I have the P3- and we had a loaner S P85D with insane+ mode.

The S in insane+ mode had a teeny bit more kick from 0, but really, the P3- is crazy quick from a standing start, like a rollercoaster, the torque almost makes me feel nauseous!

Not sure how anyone can find it slow, it's license bustingly fast.

 

[dmd2005]

The AWD 3 is similar in acceleration to the S90D.

The RWD 3 is similar to a S85 RWD.

I’ve driven a S P100DL and that definitely is in a different class and a step above the P3D. I felt nauseated launching a loaner S P100DL a bunch of times (about a dozen times within a few mjnutes) back to back and I’m don’t get queasy very easily.

The P3D is very similar to a performance S without ludicrous mode like a P85D or P90D.

 

[Shadnic]

Check out the other thread. My guess is the immediate response would be to try to steer you to the P3D+, but I would try to be persistent. If you're not in a rush, I bet you can get them to hook you up...unless they ACTUALLY stop making them...it's very unclear right now.

Talked to the guy I've been working with at the Tesla store (Fashion Valley). He said they had a TON of them a few weeks ago but now can't seem to find any except a store model. Said he wasn't sure how to predict if/when they'll show up again but that they're a great deal if you can get the options you want...

He also said that it's literally just an AWD car with the software unlocked to increase the power - which is interesting. Wonder if getting an AWD means they'd be willing to unlock it one day in the future.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

He also said that it's literally just an AWD car with the software unlocked to increase the power - which is interesting. Wonder if getting an AWD means they'd be willing to unlock it one day in the future.

To the best of our knowledge here, this USED to be true, but is no longer true. The AWDs now come with a rear 990 motor, while the P3D- are coming with 980 motors.

Whether this is significant, we do not know. But at least for now, the Performance and the AWD are different. In 2018, they were the same, which is why he thinks what he thinks. But starting in 2019, the motor on the AWD was changed.

Model 3 Motors on the Tesla Parts Catalog

If you're not in a rush, just emphasize to this guy that you really want the Performance, and it's kind of on him to hook you up.

People are still picking them up (it is dependent on region however):

M3P-

If they stopped making them (I really kind of doubt they will - but so far I have not heard a report about an August build - only July), it's no great loss to wait just to be sure. Tesla needs to maximize their profits this quarter! They should want to sell you the more expensive car!

It's possible right now they aren't making them because they are making cars for other markets, etc. If that's the case, they'll probably ramp up production of domestic market vehicles again at some point very soon. I have no idea how they do their product mix, but it kind of makes sense to build cars for different markets at different times, or at least on different lines. So the availability of certain vehicles could be sporadic.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I just picked my P3- up about a week ago. The folks at UTC Tesla helped me find one. You have to act quick though. I don't know if it is marketing tactics or what but the day I ordered mine they had 4 in SoCal in the morning. By the time I actually pulled the trigger, I apparently bought the last one in the config I wanted. (midnight silver / black interior / aero wheels). Totally worth the 2k.

I also have a theory that they made all these crazy configurations right before the end of the quarter to try and boost sales. You could take a gamble and if they don't have the config you want now, wait until just before the end of the year and see what comes up in their inventory.

Any idea on the build date for your car?

 

[Shadnic]

Tesla guy let me know that the "sleeper performance" (what he says they call them internally) was one of their test drive cars and let me come drive it today. Was ... definitely very fast. Almost too fast, haha. It got up to speed so quickly you almost don't get to experience it very long!

It was a really interesting experience having now driven the RWD and the P Model 3 just a few days apart.... the RWD felt like a fun little zippy car. Very comfortable and easy to manage, but not thrilling and not going to knock you back in your seat.

The P was almost like a non-stop thrill ride. Every little touch would send you flying, it almost never felt like you were just cruising along. You could definitely tell that this car is smaller and lighter than the S is just how immediately that power sends you flying.

I enjoyed it a lot but maybe didn't "fall in love" with the sensation like I hoped I would. Having driven P and AWD Model S's, they still feel very controlled and smooth and just kick it up when you want it to. This felt like it was zooming around constantly. I was also pretty rushed so I didn't get to just casually drive it around much, which could 100% explain why I feel that way. I was pretty much only getting on/off freeways.

Definitely a lot to think about though, if more of these even become available. I'm curious if it may become another "end of quarter" thing to sell more cars...

 

[diver110]

Shadnic makes a good point. An important question to ask yourself is what kind of car do you want. If you want a good performing sedan, you might be happier with an S or X. If you are more the sports car type, where there is a large premium on handling, you might like the 3 better. As I noted, the (top of the line) 3 was the only one that handled better than my Porsche. Another thread said it might have something to do with the battery length. On the S, the thread said the battery is the length of the car, while it is a bit shorter on the 3.

BTW, Shadnic, I grew up in Ocean Beach and Point Loma---before there was a Fashion Valley mall!

 

[eustachio]

This felt like it was zooming around constantly. I was also pretty rushed so I didn't get to just casually drive it around much, which could 100% explain why I feel that way. I was pretty much only getting on/off freeways.

I felt that way for the first few days of my P3D-. But I realize now, I was flooring it everywhere. Now I just drive it like normal, and it's a pussycat, but the power is there on tap anytime you need or want it.

FWIW, I had a loaner P85D for 24 hours and did a good bit of driving in it. To me, it felt big and heavy, albeit very comfortable. The 3 felt much more nimble and modern.