Towed Teslas at SFO, after getting unplugged?

[Graffi]

Hi Folks,

Parked at SFO short term parking for a trip over the holidays. Was charging at a ChargePoint. Was unplugged a few days in - which I guess I’m fine with, presumably because someone saw on the ChargePoint screen that I was done.

However I noticed that both Tesla’s next to me were also unplugged... not sure what their state of charge was.
Then as I exited the garage, I noticed 3 Tesla’s getting towed. 2 Model 3’s, one X. Guessing vampire drain took them down to 0.

Which caused me to wonder:
- maybe these were newbs that didn’t know about vampire drain
Or
- maybe they were charging and got unplugged part way through. Making me rethink the whole unplugging etiquette.

Thoughts?

J

My thoughts are really simple on the charging of Tesla's at any long-term parking areas (more than a couple of hours):
1. Plan ahead, either charge up fully or at a high level at home, or if you drive a long way, find a Supercharger to get close to a full charge before you park. This is really important during the cold weather up north where a cold battery will have limited recharge ability. Get as many electrons in your battery as you can while it is warm and will accept them. As you use your Tesla when you return it will warm up and give you access to these electrons. If you try to charge a VERY COLD battery that is close to empty so you can drive a few miles to a Supercharger it could take you HOURS, or worse, you may have to find an airport Hotel with a J1772 to plug into and stay the night to get enough charge to get you the 10 miles or more to the Supercharger. It has happened, not to me, I read about it here on TMC forum.
2. Park in regular parking so no one will mess with your car. AVOID public J1772 charging, even if it is "FREE" because there are other EV owners with much shorter range capacity that need it more than you. After all, you have a range of 200 to 300 miles and can easily find a close by Supercharger to plug into for 10 to 20 minutes that will give you as many miles as you need.

jmho

 

[TMSfanatic]

Is this “vampire drain” a myth? I have a Nissan Leaf and have left for a 10 day trip, car unplugged at home. The range was the same. I know Tesla EVs are more complex but to drain a 75 kWh battery on let’s say 2 weeks seems impossible. What is possible is the 12 volt battery losing charge due to failure of 1 or more cells. These failures are invisible when the car is used/charged daily. As to being unplugged, typically if the car is fully charged, specially in short term parking, it’s due to someone needing a recharge. That is OK etiquette.

Even our i3 is not bad at all. Tesla is horrid

 

[MaryAnning3]

Even our i3 is not bad at all. Tesla is horrid

That is inaccurate. Model 3 vampire drain* is 1% per day in SFO weather. If you park at 70% you will be at 55% after 2 weeks.

* Vampire drain, in my opinion, means drain while your car is sleeping. Let your car sleep. Don't check the car everyday. (That wakes it.) Quit your Tesla app when you are not actively checking. (That could wake it.) Don't use logging apps. Consider turning off Cabin Overheat Protection, which can waste some power in the first 24 hours.

 

[Pinot.Noir]

At $30 to $40 a day, isn't it cheaper to Uber to the airport and back? Particularly if you are gone for 4+ days?

 

[bedoig]

That is inaccurate. Model 3 vampire drain* is 1% per day in SFO weather. If you park at 70% you will be at 55% after 2 weeks.

* Vampire drain, in my opinion, means drain while your car is sleeping. Let your car sleep. Don't check the car everyday. (That wakes it.) Quit your Tesla app when you are not actively checking. (That could wake it.) Don't use logging apps. Consider turning off Cabin Overheat Protection, which can waste some power in the first 24 hours.

I'd say it's perfectly accurate. Every single person that has chimed in with their experience in other EVs has indicated basically no SOC loss after sitting unplugged for prolonged periods. My experience with a '13 and '16 Leaf was similar. At one point I let my '13 Leaf sit untouched and unplugged for three months with no loss that I can recall. I was toward the end of my lease, at my mileage limit, and had another car to drive so I just let it sit.

Teslas burn a lot of unexplained energy somehow.

 

[MaryAnning3]

I'd say it's perfectly accurate. Every single person that has chimed in with their experience in other EVs has indicated basically no SOC loss after sitting unplugged for prolonged periods. My experience with a '13 and '16 Leaf was similar. At one point I let my '13 Leaf sit untouched and unplugged for three months with no loss that I can recall. I was toward the end of my lease, at my mileage limit, and had another car to drive so I just let it sit.

Teslas burn a lot of unexplained energy somehow.

True, you would not want to leave a Tesla unplugged for months. A model 3 burns 0.75 kWh per day (1% of capacity). I don't think it is unexplained, and to me it is not "a lot", although that is a personal value judgement.

I doubt that there is any Li-ion battery that can sit for 3 months and not experience loss.

 

[ohmman]

I doubt that there is any Li-ion battery that can sit for 3 months and not experience loss.

Indeed. Entropy is a reality.

 

[TMSfanatic]

That is inaccurate. Model 3 vampire drain* is 1% per day in SFO weather. If you park at 70% you will be at 55% after 2 weeks.

* Vampire drain, in my opinion, means drain while your car is sleeping. Let your car sleep. Don't check the car everyday. (That wakes it.) Quit your Tesla app when you are not actively checking. (That could wake it.) Don't use logging apps. Consider turning off Cabin Overheat Protection, which can waste some power in the first 24 hours.

Easy there fan boy... I have a model s and drains 2-3 miles a day. My i3 doesn't even budge (as in same mileage and batt %) after a full week parked at the airport

 

[bedoig]

I doubt that there is any Li-ion battery that can sit for 3 months and not experience loss.

Indeed. Entropy is a reality.

I'm sure it lost some, but I know it was far less than a 10% drop over that time frame. Something along the lines of park it at 87% then check it again three months later when I go to return it to Nissan and it's at 83%. A loss small enough to not even register unless you're specifically making notes of the percentages, which I didn't do. I've seen similar anecdotes from people who would leave a Leaf at a vacation house for getting around town when they'd fly in. Very little SOC loss leaving it unplugged for a whole season at a time.

Of course both of my Leaf's suffered terrible battery degradation over their short three year lives, drove like they were powered by a hamster wheel, and were incredibly ugly.

 

[MaryAnning3]

I have a model s and drains 2-3 miles a day.

I am puzzled. Isn't 2-3 miles per day the same as 1%. Which is what I said about the 3.

 

[SaveOurPlanet]

I'm just curious, a lot of people seem to think Tesla is the only EV that has vampire drain, but do all non-Tesla EV attempt or perform software download/data upload? The reason I am asking is that I notice the drain on my S is worse when it is connected to the internet than when it is not. Likewise, my iPad will burn power like crazy when streaming video than when sitting there idling.

 

[OCTuna]

Yeah, I debated that but given all the vampire drain stories and the length of time I was traveling, hogging a spot for an extended period seemed like the only option. Didn’t feel terrible esp when there are usually another 10 unoccupied spots nearby... but welcomimg other suggestions

Sure does seem like unplugging someone when there are many available spots, and in my case both spots adjacent have their own charger units, is a bit of a head scratcher.

DB move if you ask me. All the uproar over ICE'ing Superchargers, yet it's OK for you to ICE a Charging station while you're away.
Ban me but a spade is a spade, DB move.

 

[OCTuna]

That is inaccurate. Model 3 vampire drain* is 1% per day in SFO weather. If you park at 70% you will be at 55% after 2 weeks.

* Vampire drain, in my opinion, means drain while your car is sleeping. Let your car sleep. Don't check the car everyday. (That wakes it.) Quit your Tesla app when you are not actively checking. (That could wake it.) Don't use logging apps. Consider turning off Cabin Overheat Protection, which can waste some power in the first 24 hours.

Ummm they said i3.....read the post, not M3.

 

[MaryAnning3]

Ummm they said i3.....read the post, not M3.

I read the post. It said "Tesla is horrid". I responded: no (it is not "horrid"). It is 1% loss per day. I was responding the part about Tesla, not the part about i3.

 

[MaryAnning3]

Hmm. This is interesting. I believe there are two kinds of losses for a Li-Ion battery. One is self-discharge, which is intrinsic and must be present in both BMW I3 (43 kwh capacity) and Tesla Model 3 (75 kwh capacity) batteries. This intrinsic loss is in the neighborhood of about 4-8% per month. If you are not seeing that in an I3, that is, if you are seeing zero loss, that would likely mean that the state of charge(SoC) is not being updated by the electronics. (Perhaps it updates later when you have driven a bit?)
With the Model 3 one sees an actual loss of about 33% per month, so the vast majority of that is from "system management" and not from intrinsic loss. For a model 3 where things are working properly, you can easily park for a month (e.g., park at 75 or 80% state of charge (SoC) and come back a 40 or 45%.) So the loss is significant, but, in my experience, it is manageable.
I wonder if there might also be some system management related power use in the i3 as well. Based on basic battery physics and other assumptions, I think the I3 loss when parked unused for a month must be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 to 4 kwh, which is between 5% and 10% of the capacity of that 43 kwh battery. Possibly more. If you not seeing that amount of loss, it probably reflects something about the SoC updating and determination in the i3.

 

[bedoig]

it probably reflects something about the SoC updating and determination in the i3.

A reasonable response, but it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm not going to belabor this, standby discharge rates for other EVs are well documented all over the internet on other car forums. Many of us are not new to battery electric vehicles. Many have been interested and involved since before Tesla existed.

If other manufactures optimized chemistry for lower resting discharge while Tesla optimized for better longevity, fine, that's good actually. In my opinion (please prove me wrong), we're mainly seeing electronics not sleeping. It's kind of hard to dispute when the Model 3 obviously doesn't do any battery heating that we've seen, and discharge rates are similar to summer. The car is obviously not doing anything, so take your pick: extreme self-discharge or always running, unoptimized electronics.

 

[TexasEV]

DB move if you ask me. All the uproar over ICE'ing Superchargers, yet it's OK for you to ICE a Charging station while you're away.
Ban me but a spade is a spade, DB move.

No, it’s an airport parking garage or lot. The EV charging there is intended for people who park there while they’ve flown somewhere. This is unlike any other J1772 situation. Of course it would be better for the airport parking to install many 120V outlets on individual circuits than a few J1772s, but no one makes any money selling 120V outlets to airports.

 

[MaryAnning3]

A reasonable response, but it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm not going to belabor this, standby discharge rates for other EVs are well documented all over the internet on other car forums. Many of us are not new to battery electric vehicles. Many have been interested and involved since before Tesla existed.

I hear you. I don’t think we disagree on anything important.

My goal is to reassure people that you can park at SFO unplugged for a month with a Tesla. Just charge it to about 80% before you park. When you come back a month later it will be at about 50%. Then you have about 80 miles of range to get home or to a supercharger and you won’t even go below 20% state of charge. Its all good.

 

[ai4px]

And yes, airport parking is expensive ($30-40/day). One of the main reasons I opt to pay the premium to park there these days is so I can come home to a nicely charged car!

THe correct solution for this is L1 charging way back in the back corner of the parking garage. 8amps @ 120v will certainly have your car topped off when you return. Its a shame (poor form??) to take up a L2 EVSE for days on end.

When we were at Key West last fall, there was a MX parked next to us in Margaritaville garage and one of the L2 EVSEs was malfunctioning. I plugged us in and replugged him when we left. We'd seen him there the night before, so we knew he had to have been full anyway.

 

[ai4px]

I wish airports would learn.
Long term parking needs lots of 120v plugs.
Short term needs J1772
Hourly needs fast charging.

When they pit J1772 outlets where people park for a few days, problems will occur.

ATL has a off airport parking with 50 120v plugs, it's the perfect answer

I found two places in plugshare.... Park'n Ticket with 25 L1 spots and PreFlight Parking with 28 L1 spots.

Are there any others? This is a goldmine!