Traveling by Supercharger can be more expensive than ICE

[qdeathstar]

Just the opposite. It is way past time to return externalities from shipping

I don’t think we have the technology or infrastructure yet.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Okay, so let me stir the pot a little more. LOL

but seriously, I see several of you justifying that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE because of electricity demand charges etc. I’m certainly not going to argue that. But I do question it from the standpoint of trying to migrate America over to electric cars. Your average consumer is not going to do it if driving an ICE vehicle is more expensive. And PLEASE don’t get into another “charge at home in the middle of the night argument” not everyone can install a charger because they live in an apartment, or a rented house whose landlord won’t let them or simply can’t afford to install one, etc.

I think the utility companies need to revamp the “demand charges”. If half the country was driving electric, the demand would be huge!

I don't agree that is is more expensive than driving ICEV...at least that isn't going to be universally true. Your example was specific to your driving style/location. I have certainly been able to go farther on less energy in our previous MX than you achieved in your initial example, for instance.

Typically, it would have cost us $9.60 to travel ~180 miles (Hwy) in our MX at the current $0.24/min quoted on Tesla's SC website (and that's in Fall/Winter). I'm not going to bother looking at comparable ICEV SUV/CUVs...because it wouldn't even be close.

As others have pointed out, the Model 3 LR isn't comparable to vehicles in the 30mpg range, at least when accounting for performance. Furthemore, there is a great deal more volatility in gasolines prices than electricity...the price you pay today may not be the price you pay tomorrow.

Finally, the vast majority of EV owners for at least the next decade will come from households that have access to home charging, so the home charging aspect is certainly relevant.

 

[Redbrick]

Okay, so let me stir the pot a little more. LOL

but seriously, I see several of you justifying that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE because of electricity demand charges etc. I’m certainly not going to argue that. But I do question it from the standpoint of trying to migrate America over to electric cars. Your average consumer is not going to do it if driving an ICE vehicle is more expensive. And PLEASE don’t get into another “charge at home in the middle of the night argument” not everyone can install a charger because they live in an apartment, or a rented house whose landlord won’t let them or simply can’t afford to install one, etc.

I think the utility companies need to revamp the “demand charges”. If half the country was driving electric, the demand would be huge!

Battery tech needs to be a quantum leap from where we are... I am no longer as sure as I was before that all electric is the answer.

 

[40914]

Here in Florida with Florida Power and Light, I pay $.103(10.3 cents)per kWh. My 2020 model X lifetime average is 335 watts, so that is less than 4 cents per mile. For 140 miles it would cost me less than $5.60. Yes, Superchargers are higher. I have always thought all of Tesla cars should pay, not only for another revenue stream but to limit the number of cars using Superchargers that should be charging at home.

 

[nwdiver]

Battery tech needs to be a quantum leap from where we are... I am no longer as sure as I was before that all electric is the answer.

??? I have a 8 year old MS. I don't 'need' anything more than it currently provides. I've considered upgrading but saving 30 minutes charging once every 3 months when I need to supercharge didn't seem like it was worth buying a newer car...

What is lacking and why do we 'need' it?

I agree that EVs don't solve everything. We really need more investment in bike lanes and such too so we can kick our pathetic addiction to fools fuel sooner.

And PLEASE don’t get into another “charge at home in the middle of the night argument” not everyone can install a charger because they live in an apartment, or a rented house whose landlord won’t let them or simply can’t afford to install one, etc.

There are lots of solutions but L3 CANNOT be the answer to daily charging because math. L2 costs <$100/kW capacity. L3 is >$1000/kW capacity. Charge at work. Charge at the gym. Get street side charging. London is adding outlets to lamp posts. Having a place to charge curbside isn't some Herculean engineering task. You just need some tiny #10 wires that can deliver 16A. That's it. Heck... even smaller #12 wires and charging @10A would probably be more than sufficient.

 

[one2many]

Safe driving....it's all about endurance...did a one stop from dallas to chicago once on a bet. An awesome canonball run west to east coast once for the Y2K NY eve. Someday I'd like to drive to Buenos Aires...yeah let me pull up that plugshare app. For long hauls...you need a real car. Tesla is just a toy for local thrills.

I guess someone woke up on the wrong side of the electron.
1. What point are you trying to make , that you work for BMW.
2. My doctor would like to see if you can be a bladder transplant doner
3. What the heck is the question
4. There are other forums for this
5. how do you make a Jack and coke

 

[Nickage87]

That, and building infrastructure is expensive. Even if Supercharging is merely a break-even venture, they need to pay back the cost to install the equipment. When I installed level 2 charging in my outdoor condo parking space, it cost me almost $5k (before credits/deductions, which were admittedly substantial). That involved a run of about 90 feet from the meter, half in conduit and half in a trench. Trenching, in particular, is expensive.

That's for a 240v wall connector! Given the scope of work, most superchargers probably cost $200k-$400k to install and some ongoing cost to maintain. There's also rent payments to the site to account for. If you compare Tesla's rates against networks that truly generate a profit (like EVGO), Tesla charges significantly less.

As to a comparison again driving your truck, well, that's why we need carbon pricing. When you can externalize the cost of pollution, a lot of things become artificially cheaper!

Calling EV batteries less polluting? Have you seen those places where lithium comes from?

Battery tech needs to be a quantum leap from where we are... I am no longer as sure as I was before that all electric is the answer.

I got the same idea after owning ev for a year, and additional ecological issues with lithium digging make more sense now automakers push to hydrogen engines.

 

[nwdiver]

...you need a real car. Tesla is just a toy for local thrills.

So what's your idea of a real car? For any rational person in 2020 'real cars' don't burn fools fuel. Only morons and monsters burn fools fuel where alternatives exist. A lucid Air? Can you do the cannonball run on the EA network? What's your idea of a real car?

Have you seen those places where lithium comes from?

I agree no car is better but for those times you need a car I choose lithium. As a bonus it can be recycled.

Lithium

VS Fools fuel

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Calling EV batteries less polluting? Have you seen those places where lithium comes from?

I got the same idea after owning ev for a year, and additional ecological issues with lithium digging make more sense now automakers push to hydrogen engines.

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying that lithium can only be sourced one way, and somehow that's worse for the environment than the extraction and burning of FF?

After owning BEVs for 4+ years, and having some knowledge about the challenges of FCEVs, I have come away with a completely different opinion.

 

[one2many]

Have you seen where oil comes from, or coal , go smell it for yourself

 

[AlexP]

Here in Florida with Florida Power and Light, I pay $.103(10.3 cents)per kWh. My 2020 model X lifetime average is 335 watts, so that is less than 4 cents per mile. For 140 miles it would cost me less than $5.60. Yes, Superchargers are higher. I have always thought all of Tesla cars should pay, not only for another revenue stream but to limit the number of cars using Superchargers that should be charging at home.

I have free lifetime supercharging on the S and the X. I intend to use as much as I can although I can also charge at home.

My consumption with FPL higher so my rate is almost $0.12/KWh.

 

[SageBrush]

I don’t think we have the technology or infrastructure yet.

My original comment should have read:


Just the opposite. It is way past time to remove externalities from shipping

 

[qingshan]

I don't know what the big deal is having to pay a little more than gasoline when supercharging, it's not like you're supposed to supercharge when commuting dialy.

And isn't it well known that "topping off" is at the least efficient end of the scale? But to be honest, price of fuel wasn't the reason I got an ev

 

[qdeathstar]

My original comment should have read:


Just the opposite. It is way past time to remove externalities from shipping

Sure, but forcing them to use a more expensive source of energy when a cheaper one exists would not be doing that.

I imagine increasing the costs of shipping goods 2x would have a large negative impact on gdp for a good while.

 

[nwdiver]

Sure, but forcing them to use a more expensive source of energy when a cheaper one exists would not be doing that.

I imagine increasing the costs of shipping goods 2x would have a large negative impact on gdp for a good while.

We have a cheaper source. We just need to improve our infrastructure to use it. Think of the benefits if as part of an infrastructure plan we spent ~$100B on overhead cantilever lines to allow trucks to charge while driving on select sections of road. That would be an almost insurmountable challenge for a private company but not for the DOT.

 

[qdeathstar]

We have a cheaper source. We just need to improve our infrastructure to use it. Think of the benefits if as part of an infrastructure plan we spent ~$100B on overhead cantilever lines to allow trucks to charge while driving on select sections of road. That would be an almost insurmountable challenge for a private company but not for the DOT.

buying a ev truck isn’t even possible right now. Sure down the road all these ideas are great, but we can do a gas tax hike on passenger vehicles right now by 2-3 dollars and not have a huge impact on the economy the way doubling the cost of shipping good would. Ev passenger vehicles and infrastructure has hit a delta where government can put the pressure down to accelerate the shift way from carbon fuels, but we aren’t at the same point for cargo yet. There you would want to incentivize instead of penalize.

 

[Redbrick]

So what's your idea of a real car? For any rational person in 2020 'real cars' don't burn fools fuel. Only morons and monsters burn fools fuel where alternatives exist. A lucid Air? Can you do the cannonball run on the EA network? What's your idea of a real car?



I agree no car is better but for those times you need a car I choose lithium. As a bonus it can be recycled.

Lithium
View attachment 605103

VS Fools fuel
View attachment 605104

A real car is what +90% of the population drives. Battery tech needs to beat fossil fuel by leaps in EVERYWAY (convenience, cost, durability,etc,etc) to be meaningful...right now...it's a neat idea, not worth the extra effort for said +90% of drivers. I am all for cleaner energy, but current state is not it or sufficient.

 

[qdeathstar]

A real car is what +90% of the population drives. Battery tech needs to beat fossil fuel by leaps in EVERYWAY (convenience, cost, durability,etc,etc) to be meaningful...right now...it's a neat idea, not worth the extra effort for said +90% of drivers. I am all for cleaner energy, but current state is not it or sufficient.

Have you ever driven a Tesla?

I’d also argue that a Tesla is better by leaps in every way.... but your hot take is ridiculous even if EVs are only almost as good.

 

[nwdiver]

EVERYWAY (convenience, cost, durability,etc,etc)

???

convenience? Check

10 year cost of ownership? Check

Durability? Double check

What more do you want? Only morons and monsters use fools fuel where alternatives exist.

 

[qdeathstar]

???

convenience? Check

10 year cost of ownership? Check

Durability? Double check

What more do you want? Only morons and monsters use fools fuel where alternatives exist.

I venture he is talking about range, which is an imaginary issue for 98 percent of people.