Traveling by Supercharger can be more expensive than ICE

[Kat Jacks]

One thing for sure, there's not that awful gasoline smell when fueling an ICE. I've made 2 referrals so with the original free charging, I have total of 3000 miles free supercharging. I also use the regular wall plug in my garage for which I see almost no increase on my electric bill.

Enjoy your Tesla and breathe the cleaner air.

 

[KenC]

I agree. Any trip more than 500-600 miles is rouger in my Tesla and we take the Volvo. A 9 hour trip turns into 11-11.5 hours in a Tesla. The stops now take up too much time for charging, the SuperCharger costs add up more than gas, and the constant "stay within * speed to make destination" is frustrating at time. I love our Tesla and its great for a small trip, but most of the time when we head long distances, we take the Volvo.

Am I correct in thinking based upon the above, you're using the Tesla planner and not ABRP?

...Long story short, normally the Volvo does the trip in 12.5 hours with 1 fillup. I plugged in the Tesla and its about 15.5-16 hours and we really cant stop overnight to split it up. If it was just me and work wasn't an issue, I would do it without question.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make. A normal 12 hour trip isn't bad but adding the charging in and almost 3-4 hours more makes it a day longer.

I think you should realize that you don't seem to be the average roadtripper. Very few people are able to drive 1000 miles and 12.5hrs, averaging 80mph, and stop only once for diesel. The average person stops every couple hours or so.

For that average person who stops every couple hours, that would be 5 stops along the way, usually alternating between short 10-15 min coffee/bathroom break stops with longer 20-30 min food/coffee/bathroom break stops. So, three shorter 12min stops and two longer 25 min food stops, add up to 1hr 26min in your typical stop scenario in an ICE.

If you took a Model 3, drove it fast enough so that it could do the road portion of traveling Chicago to New Orleans in 12 and a half hours, would require 8 stops 4 short stops from 7min to 16min, and 4 longer stops from 18 min to 29min. Total charging time 2h 17min. Total trip time 14h 36m.

The difference between stopping 2h 17min in the Model 3, for food/coffee/toilets and charging, compared to 1h 26min in an ICE with alternate short and long stops every 2hrs, is only 51minutes. In the grand scheme of things, for the average roadtripper, the difference is really quite small, an additional 10mins per the 5 stops. As Tesla upgrades its network to Version 3 superchargers, hopefully that 10min gap in stop time will be eliminated. On the 8 stops, only one was V3, a couple were V1 and the rest were V2, so there's definitely room to improve with a network upgrade.

 

[SageBrush]

The average person stops every couple hours or so.

Certainly true for us, but more importantly getting out of the car and walking for a couple of minutes every couple hours is important for health. Risking a blood clot is not part of my itinerary.

 

[Fadiawesome]

To add a bit of balance, I almost always exceed rated range by at least a little (except in the depths of winter) in my M3SR+.

Wow nice. How?????// Whats your lifetime wh/mile. In my 3sr+, I can never even get close to the rated range at a lifetime 226/wh/mile after 27k miles.

 

[SageBrush]

Wow nice. How?????// Whats your lifetime wh/mile. In my 3sr+, I can never even get close to the rated range at a lifetime 226/wh/mile after 27k miles.

I use a lot more winter heat than Amoktime and live in a 4 season climate. After 2.5 years and 26k miles my lifetime consumption is 218 Wh/mile.

It is not the car, it is the driver -- you.
Consider that good news, since it means it is in your control

 

[AmokTime]

Wow nice. How?????// Whats your lifetime wh/mile. In my 3sr+, I can never even get close to the rated range at a lifetime 226/wh/mile after 27k miles.

I drive like somebody’s grandpa (I am somebody’s grandpa, actually). I just checked my lifetime average and it’s 216 at 13,5xx miles, about the same average as SageBrush at half the mileage. I must have some bad commute days killing my average - though I may have driven it a bit aggressively for the first few months of ownership, before I settled down. I think the key is taking your time, driving the speed limit, no racing anyone off the line at traffic lights, keep your tires inflated properly, charge your car immediately before departure in cold weather to warm up the battery and restore your regen, and use the seat heaters instead of cabin heat if you can. I may be subconsciously hypermiling on long drives, too. When I had my Prius my family didn’t like driving with me - the hypermiling had become a sickness. At one point during a trip last week I found myself drafting an oil tanker. I didn’t even realize I was doing it until my wife slowly turned her head to stare me down meaningfully. “I was just going to pass him...”

 

[bruce4000]

Supercharging may be more expensive right now but don’t count on gas bring this cheap in a year after vaccines are available and travel is way up from pent up demand. Also gas has been so cheap in the us this last decade from all the fracking. However, fracked wells only produce for about 2 years before sharply declining and drilling has been way down (and banks have gotten burned with all the defaults) over the last year so there will likely be a spike at some point. In the end if you mostly charge at home, not a big deal.

 

[1100MCM]

Demand charges are expensive. I highly doubt Tesla is profiting.

Totally agree. I looked at one of Tesla’s electric bills for a smaller V3 site in an area of California known for some of the lowest rates in the state. Sure the published rate charged to Tesla is 7 cents a kWh but when you factor in demand charges it swells to 20 cents a kWh. Now factor rents or leases on property and any other expenses associated with operating superchargers and it’s not exactly a profit machine.

If you think that’s expensive, looking at a bill for Electrify America in this same area the rate is $1 a kWh net when you factor in demand charges. It’s tough right now to price charging to not lose money so they’ll have to figure something out.

 

[SageBrush]

I looked at one of Tesla’s electric bills

How ?!

 

[SageBrush]

When I had my Prius my family didn’t like driving with me - the hypermiling had become a sickness. At one point during a trip last week I found myself drafting an oil tanker. I didn’t even realize I was doing it until my wife slowly turned her head to stare me down meaningfully. “I was just going to pass him...”

I'm your twin. A reformed member of PA (Prius anonymous.)

Nowadays I am an average-ish driver speed wise but I still coast a lot. Aggressive driving is just not in my genes.

 

[qdeathstar]

Not to worry. hopefully Joe Biden will introduce a nation wide gas tax... say 2-3 dollars/gallon. That money will go toward the new green deal!

With possible exemptions for 18 wheelers and transit vehicles until those transports have suitable alternatives of course.

 

[SageBrush]

With possible exemptions for 18 wheelers and transit vehicles

Just the opposite. It is way past time to return externalities from shipping

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

Okay, so let me stir the pot a little more. LOL

but seriously, I see several of you justifying that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE because of electricity demand charges etc. I’m certainly not going to argue that. But I do question it from the standpoint of trying to migrate America over to electric cars. Your average consumer is not going to do it if driving an ICE vehicle is more expensive. And PLEASE don’t get into another “charge at home in the middle of the night argument” not everyone can install a charger because they live in an apartment, or a rented house whose landlord won’t let them or simply can’t afford to install one, etc.

I think the utility companies need to revamp the “demand charges”. If half the country was driving electric, the demand would be huge!

 

[Big Earl]

The post is about "Traveling by supercharger more expensive than ICE" not "Charging at home is cheaper than charging at a supercharger"

gdi people

Except that OP uses a 140 mile snapshot of his 340 mile drive as an example of how a gas vehicle is cheaper than his Tesla. What was the cost to charge the remaining 200 miles of his trip at home, and how does that affect the total cost of said 340 mile trip?

 

[SSedan]

Okay, so let me stir the pot a little more. LOL

but seriously, I see several of you justifying that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE because of electricity demand charges etc. I’m certainly not going to argue that. But I do question it from the standpoint of trying to migrate America over to electric cars. Your average consumer is not going to do it if driving an ICE vehicle is more expensive. And PLEASE don’t get into another “charge at home in the middle of the night argument” not everyone can install a charger because they live in an apartment, or a rented house whose landlord won’t let them or simply can’t afford to install one, etc.

I think the utility companies need to revamp the “demand charges”. If half the country was driving electric, the demand would be huge!

We are a decade or maybe decadeS away from 50% EV, why does the system need to be revamped today? Also "green" wind and solar make the need for demand charges greater.
Far as apartments and such, EVs are still a niche market and the buyer needs to take responsibility for their own planning.

And since you object to paying for the electricity you ise who should subsidize it?

You sound unfortunately at home around here as a financially well off person demanding others subsidize your purchases. Crying about the price of "fuel" and how you shouldn't pay so much strikes me as similar to how all the people buying $50k+ cars demand a tax credit.......

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Okay, so let me stir the pot a little more. LOL

but seriously, I see several of you justifying that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE because of electricity demand charges etc. I’m certainly not going to argue that. But I do question it from the standpoint of trying to migrate America over to electric cars. Your average consumer is not going to do it if driving an ICE vehicle is more expensive. And PLEASE don’t get into another “charge at home in the middle of the night argument” not everyone can install a charger because they live in an apartment, or a rented house whose landlord won’t let them or simply can’t afford to install one, etc.

If people can't charge at home, they shouldn't be forced to buy an electric car.

However, there's half the population who can. Sufficient demand growth among people who can charge at home should lead to shifts that lead to more workplace charging, MDUs with charging and political ability for municipalities to begin enabling more on-street charging. Other cases will gradually be picked off.

Also, large scale BEV ownership would also have implications that would lower DCFC prices in the future.

I think it's too early to worry about it.

I think the utility companies need to revamp the “demand charges”. If half the country was driving electric, the demand would be huge!

The only reason for utilities to revamp demand charges is if it doesn't properly reflect grid costs. Instead, I expect low cost batteries to be used to lower the cost of high power.

We only need to fight the market when the market is dumb.

 

[SageBrush]

I see several of you justifying that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE because of electricity demand charges etc. I’m certainly not going to argue that.

That is not the "argument" at all.
We are just pointing out that your ignorance of demand charges explains your wrong assertion that Tesla has turned Supercharging into a profit center.

You are welcome to start a new thread arguing that Tesla should treat Supercharging as a loss leader. Or you can just read prior threads; It is a well hashed out topic here on TMC. The tl;dr version is that it is a bad idea for any area already suffering from Supercharger congestion since it leads to irrational consumer behavior.

My opinion is that Tesla should not encourage stupid consumer behavior or lose money on the network, but I hope they innovate with self generation, TOU incentives and storage to reduce demand charges.

 

[Gasaraki]

Not to worry. hopefully Joe Biden will introduce a nation wide gas tax... say 2-3 dollars/gallon. That money will go toward the new green deal!

With possible exemptions for 18 wheelers and transit vehicles until those transports have suitable alternatives of course.

About time. Gas is too cheap, roads and bridges need repairing, planet is dying. As long as gas is cheap people will make no effort to change. I even see 18-wheelers moving to alternative fuels.

 

[one2many]

Amozon is all EV here, nice

 

[Redbrick]

I said 'it's fairly easy'... do you even plugshare bro?

View attachment 604763

IMHO driving safe isn't a 'waste of time'...

Plugshare doesn't do jack when your destination is so hot and dry your boogers turn to crystals the second you inhale...or the morning fresh air smells like a cow's butthole. Ask a local coon-ass to plug in a tesla? yeah...wait till you see his reaction.

Safe driving....it's all about endurance...did a one stop from dallas to chicago once on a bet. An awesome canonball run west to east coast once for the Y2K NY eve. Someday I'd like to drive to Buenos Aires...yeah let me pull up that plugshare app. For long hauls...you need a real car. Tesla is just a toy for local thrills.