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TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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I've always liked that this site shows tolerance to opposing views and I've tried to be sure to read their views. Tesla has screwed up over the years but they have also made amazing cars. In the end I think their amazing product will more than make up for other missteps.

That being said, what is the point anymore? My mind was made up a long time ago and I have to see how the Model 3 being in full production changes Tesla's financial situation before I would even consider selling the stock.

In the past, I've hesitated before ignoring posters I don't agree with. I don't think I will anymore. Perhaps in March I'll unignore everyone since the numbers will all be out on the table. I may as well enjoy the echo chamber until then. I sure as heck am not going to change my mind until I have all the information.
This has been my approach from the beginning. There is no shortage of sources of critical opinion about Tesla. There is a serious shortage of informed opinion about Tesla, and much of what's available is on this site. Putting a spewing bear on ignore improves the SNR by a few percent. The informed, initially patient and then increasingly strident and finally angry replies to the spewer continue unabated, alas.
 
Don't worry I'm leaving, I fully expect to get banned - but this thread really ought not try and portray itself as a place for serious conversation about investment, given anything remotely questioning the company or even positing any idea that isn't "Tesla is going to be a $2 trillion company, and if you can't see that, you're a worthless piece of *sugar*", is immediately ripped apart by people who sound more like Nindendo fanboys than serious investors.

I really do not understand the level of hostility towards basic information and data about Tesla - there are almost 5 pages of comments saying the Bloomberg article was FUD - yes it was written sensationally but it was accurate - so it's clearly not 'FUD'. Many comments are down-voted because people don't like basic facts stated in them..

I on;y actually joined this thread because someone who is (was?) an investor in TSLA asked my opinion on something. The vast majority of people who post in this thread are morons and clearly should not be allowed anywhere near a trading desk.

While I am on this rant, the phrase "not an advice" is grammatically illiterate. It should either be "This is not advice" or (better) "Not an Advisement".

/mic
the information was not accurate. There is a bunch of started cases initiated by shorts. DoJ had to react and to ask for information. They did, they got the information weeks ago and nothing happened

.
When they start the real prob DoJ always tell. Unlike SEC they have no secrecy requirements and it's pretty much the standard approach to declare open investigations against companies (because in the cases they don't companies do and successfully apply the victim card).
You need to see a doctor or something, did you loose too much money shorting?
 
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The problem is that he doubled down with his next tweet; "Investor support is confirmed. Only reason why this is not certain is that it’s contingent on a shareholder vote."
This is reasonable criticism of Elon's tweets on taking Tesla private. As it turned out, investor support was lacking and it was very very far from certain, certainly not only because of a necessary shareholder vote. Having said that, I personally think Elon, for whatever reason, believed what he was tweeting, even though those things were not actually true.
 
Let see: most of this 140k comes from China (like 80k or more). chinese best EV is ByD yan =40kwh battery number of sells per month is in the range of model S.

Apart from the bigger batteries of BYD e6 (80 kwh), BYD e5 (48 kwh), BYD Song (48/62 kwh), BYD Qin (48 kwh), Geely Emgrand (45 kwh) and some others, the fact that there doesn't seem to be something called a BYD Yan and that we are talking about 125k and not 140k worldwide sales (ex Tesla) you may be correct.

sure they will come to local authorities, and those will ask to build a beton bottom to the factory according to quite strong specifications for chemical factories in order to isolate factory completely from ground waters, then local authorities will forbid massive immigration of chinese workers and put restrictions on the number of chinese engineers, and in the end if it ever comes to the national authorities the offer will be stroked off as a undesirable investment.

Please go with your nonsense about CATL to SA or other swamp.
None of the european companies will be able to produce EVs even with the advertised meager rates. And I didn't start about motors...

It can hardly become more official: CATL released construction details of their first battery factory outside China. The facility in Erfurt, a town in the East of Germany, targets a capacity of 14 GWh and will cost CATL 240M euros.

For the state of Thuringia it means much needed jobs, 600 to be precise. The facility will stand on a 70 hectare ground in the industrial area called Erfurter Kreuz. The agreement between CATL and the Free State of Thuringia has been signed today as part of the German-Chinese intergovernmental consultations in the Federal Chancellery in Berlin.
CATL revealing details on battery factory in Erfurt - electrive.com

You are funny.
 
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Local culture, folks. Posters come from all first languages, and someone's not-quite-right English was adopted by other posters. Please try to keep up. Thanks. /s

Edit: /s
I kinda like it...it is the same as the HODL! crowd with bitcoin.
A little humor goes a long way..and Mr. Wooloomooloomooloo could use some I think.
 
Rigging the market is PAR for the course. Standard. Every day kind of stuff. That's their wheelhouse. They waited until footing at 300 was established and then wrecked house by releasing the article with simultaneous shorting. This is not conjecture, that's what happened.
I would call it coincidence unless you can establish a statistically significant pattern of news stories by Bloomberg timed to hurt Tesla. Even in this case, why didn't they "wait" for it to hit $325 or recover all the way back above $350 in anticipation of a profitable Q3 report?
 
The BOARD of the company effectively knew NOTHING about this at the time. The board went on to actually distance itself (and the company) from the statements of the CEO who made the comments, while somewhat supporting the CEO's opportunity to discuss the option with the board and outsiders.

At that point, all parties scrambled to make sense of the comments and back it up with possibilities. And then apparently decided that in the span of a few days/week, they had decided that well, "it wasn't in the best interest of the shareholders" I've worked on M&A deals, NOTHING happens that fast - at all.

I don't see this as something that is going to lead nowhere from a penalty or censure of someone or the company in some way.
I can see Musk getting a fine, but I can't see any way the *company* would. Can you? He made it very clear he was speaking on his own behalf and so did the board.
 
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.......
  • Furthermore, both the drop and the "catching of the falling knife" was too fast in my opinion and not characteristic of typical bad news price action: the price dropped about 9.8% from its daily high, just short of the 10% drop level that would have triggered an automatic circuit breaker that bans activist short selling trades for two days.
  • The fall gave me the impression of well informed market participants stopping the fall with limit orders, then (possibly) re-shorting the stock at higher levels again.

  • I fully agree this was pure manipulation. I would go as fer to say that Dana worked this out with a large short. What makes it completely obvious is the hard stop before triggering the 10% breaker. If this news were actually sell worthy it would have kept going even if the shorts had a limit buy order.... heck it would still be dropping now in after hours.
    Even is the story is completely true the massive drop is most likely a kind of bear raid.

    The SEC will do nothing about it.

    How many here are new to trading? I think most of us have been investing in many other stocks for years. When real bad news comes out the drop in the SP of other companies I've traded did not magically stop. That's why there is that saying about don't catch the falling knife. You are not supposed to know it stops dead at 9.8%.
 
I would call it coincidence unless you can establish a statistically significant pattern of news stories by Bloomberg timed to hurt Tesla. Even in this case, why didn't they "wait" for it to hit $325 or recover all the way back above $350 in anticipation of a profitable Q3 report?

In general, I agree with your sentiment about coincidence. But when you say "timed to hurt Tesla" that implies there was something special about just now. The questionable timing is the 30k shares (speculation of short) sold right before the news hit. In other words, it isn't so much the drop coinciding with the news as that a large sell order happened just prior to the news.

As to why not $325 or $350 -- there are a couple of responses (if there is a conspiracy). First, it might not have raised that high. If you are going to do it, you do it at a given price. What matters in shorting is the pricing differential, not the absolute values. Second, you are presuming that there are not other motivations. For example, a belief that the stock will raise $X on hearing the good news about Q3. Repeated price knock downs would be useful in such a case in order to keep the final Q3 price as low as possible.

None of which proves anything. What *is* known is that Bloomberg and others constantly rely on negative stories about Tesla. Which does mean that, by coincidence, a large sale could happen to occur shortly before such a news item was posted. There is certainly evidence of this happening (IIRC another was this last February when Moody did the downgrade) but reaching statistical significance is another matter. I'm not a statistician, but my sense from the math of it is that even with $TSLA's frequent swings there just wouldn't be enough to lock it down either way.

But statistics is the black box approach of assigning probability to coincidence. The SEC could investigate which avoids the playing with numbers to make better guesses. Not that I expect they will.

Short version: coincidence is not proof of conspiracy, insufficient data to determine probability with any confidence, SEC unlikely to investigate.
 
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Obviously that part was not reckless and stupid. The problem is the other stuff - "Funding secured", and especially "contingent only on shareholder vote". That last part appears now to have been false, and that makes it pretty darn reckless.
That last part -- "contingent only on shareholder vote" -- was obviously false. There are *always* other pieces of paperwork, agencies which have to approve things, etc. That was reckless on the part of Musk. I still don't see any way *Tesla* is at fault (as opposed to Musk).
 
That last part -- "contingent only on shareholder vote" -- was obviously false. There are *always* other pieces of paperwork, agencies which have to approve things, etc. That was reckless on the part of Musk. I still don't see any way *Tesla* is at fault (as opposed to Musk).

As you say, there were obviously other pieces of paperwork, approvals, etc. Being obvious, why should that not be considered assumed in his statement? Musk wasn't writing a legal contract, he was making plain statements in normal English. Or should everyone always be qualifying everything they say?

(Heck, that last sentence has 'everyone', 'always', and 'everything' which certainly invites overreach of statement. Yet people, outside of special cases like legal contracts and programming, get along just fine without spelling out every last detail.)
 
(via reddit)

I wonder if this still happens (from 2013) Bloomberg News Pays Reporters More If Their Stories Move Markets

TL;DR among other things they get bonuses for "market moving" stories. They also got them for accuracy but I am pretty sure which one is easier to do repeatedly and efficiently.
This explains a lot about the declining standards at Bloomberg. Not that I trust Business Insider but... it looks like Bloomberg *admitted* to this practice and continued doing it?!?
 
As you say, there were obviously other pieces of paperwork, approvals, etc. Being obvious, why should that not be considered assumed in his statement?
Because in M&A you always say "This deal is contingent on realization of all necessary governmental approvals", or something similar. I've seen it what feels like ten billion times. Given that, I would be unsurprised if it is actually illegal to not say that.
 
In general, I agree with your sentiment about coincidence. But when you say "timed to hurt Tesla" that implies there was something special about just now. The questionable timing is the 30k shares (speculation of short) sold right before the news hit. In other words, it isn't so much the drop coinciding with the news as that a large sell order happened just prior to the news.

As to why not $325 or $350 -- there are a couple of responses (if there is a conspiracy). First, it might not have raised that high. If you are going to do it, you do it at a given price. What matters in shorting is the pricing differential, not the absolute values. Second, you are presuming that there are not other motivations. For example, a belief that the stock will raise $X on hearing the good news about Q3. Repeated price knock downs would be useful in such a case in order to keep the final Q3 price as low as possible.

None of which proves anything. What *is* known is that Bloomberg and others constantly rely on negative stories about Tesla. Which does mean that, by coincidence, a large sale could happen to occur shortly before such a news item was posted. There is certainly evidence of this happening (IIRC another was this last February when Moody did the downgrade) but reaching statistical significance is another matter. I'm not a statistician, but my sense from the math of it is that even with $TSLA's frequent swings there just wouldn't be enough to lock it down either way.

But statistics is the black box approach of assigning probability to coincidence. The SEC could investigate which avoids the playing with numbers to make better guesses. Not that I expect they will.

Short version: coincidence is not proof of conspiracy, insufficient data to determine probability with any confidence, SEC unlikely to investigate.

I didn't know about the 30k shares sale. The funny thing is Tesla is almost uniquely covered by so many negative stories every day in outlets like Bloomberg and BI that, over the course of a year, it wouldn't surprise me if there's enough data to be analyzed to yield statistically significant evidence of fishy goings on if they do indeed exist. It did indeed occur to me earlier today what kinds of firewalls, if any, exist in the financial media to mitigate against insider knowledge (of market-moving breaking stories) being used for personal gain. I doubt there are any - just the honour system, which I know will evince lots of laughter on this forum, and I'd probably join along. People are corruptible. But suspicion is not the same thing as hard evidence, let alone proof.
 
I didn't know about the 30k shares sale. The funny thing is Tesla is almost uniquely covered by so many negative stories every day in outlets like Bloomberg and BI that, over the course of a year, it wouldn't surprise me if there's enough data to be analyzed to yield statistically significant evidence of fishy goings on if they do indeed exist. It did indeed occur to me earlier today what kinds of firewalls, if any, exist in the financial media to mitigate against insider knowledge (of market-moving breaking stories) being used for personal gain. I doubt there are any - just the honour system, which I know will evince lots of laughter on this forum, and I'd probably join along. People are corruptible. But suspicion is not the same thing as hard evidence, let alone proof.

There's lots of trading data to be sure, but is it enough. But what matters in this regard is going to be the frequency of large sell orders and news postings. While there are going to be plenty of both (more of the former than the latter, I'm sure) what you would basically do is determine the rate at which the raw numbers predict the occurrence and compare that to the observed occurrence. But, due to the large number of sell orders the differential is likely to be small and given the large data set lack statistical relevance even when there are bad actors at work.

Let me try this another way: people without experience tend to think of weighted dice as giving extreme results. But even extremely weighted dice -- so badly weighted that they perform what should be physically impossible feats -- do not have quite the extreme result as you would expect. That is, a weighted die that is useful gives only the slightest edge to the gambler. He knows he has the edge, but to take advantage of it requires long runs of use. Unfortunately for his opponents, those long runs of use are not long enough to rule out an honest die. In fact, no run is long enough to *prove* it, you just increase the confidence.

If you had the data as to which accounts did the sales then it becomes *much* easier to apply statistics because the data set is reduced -- you are not looking at all trades, only trades for a particular account. Then you can flag any accounts which have a higher then expected coincidence with negative news drops.

And worse, to "prove" statistically that there is not connivance has all of the same problems. Which is why I said that statistics isn't really going to help here. Unless you have data as to which account did which transaction.
 
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