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TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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Note the following, important difference: at this point (end of Q3/2018) most Tesla shorts are pretending that they are thinking like pragmatic accountants, they are projecting a (false) image of knowing the truth behind the numbers.

Most of the loudest ones are doing this for several reasons, none of which derive from an honest contrarian viewpoint:
  • Firstly, it's part of a Wall Street type affinity fraud pattern targeting money managers globally: "Look I'm this reasonable but level-headed guy who knows his way around Wall Street financials, I looked over the latest numbers and sadly they don't add up."
  • Note that many of the same trolls, when active in global warming discussions, try to project the image of a concerned scientist, making scientific arguments. It's affinity fraud, part of a con artist act of deception.
  • Secondly, if your goal is to raise doubt dishonestly, it's easier to do this via small details that 99.9% of the general public, 99% of the investing public and 90% of the analysts are not intimately familiar with, unless you are a neutral sector expert specialized in Tesla. Talking about obscure details gives the argument an air of expert authenticity, and it's always much easier to raise doubt than to remove doubt, and this principle of asymmetric warfare underlies much of the modus operandi of Tesla short communications these days.
I'm familiar with many short thesis variants, and I can tell you with a high confidence level that various popular short thesis cornerstone claims are fraudulent:
  • The claim that Tesla is losing money on every EV made is false.
  • The claim that finished Model 3's need to be worked on a lot at large expenses is false.
  • The claim that Tesla SG&A scales linearly with revenue (and thus guarantees insolvency) is false.
  • The claim that Tesla never turned a profit is false.
  • The claim that Tesla is hiding new unsold units in inventory is false.
  • The claim that credible Tesla competitors are just around the corner is false.
  • The claim that Tesla is overvalued (while they are ignoring huge intangible assets in their valuation), is false.
Each and every one of these accounting-style claims is false and dishonest, and often a technically true variant of it is stated in such a misleading way that makes it worse than false. (I'm also willing to defend/discuss any of these assessments, should anyone be of the honest opinion that they are true.)

For example a common framing is that 'Tesla never had a profitable year in its history', which is technically true, but highly misleading, because Tesla had two profitable quarters, which were always followed by impatient quarters spent on (insanely high-)growth projects.

Also note that shorts keep manufacturing new variants of these arguments, often based on the latest financials, to make it harder to find a current critique of that latest thesis. Generating a new variant of a previous lie is cheap, debunking it while making sure that everything you say is true is expensive. If the critique makes even a small mistake or includes a debatable claim then the argument gets turned around into a 'gotcha' moment and gets turned into a he-said-she-said argument which is a win for the troll/FUDster.

There are honest Tesla bears, but they are neither certain about their analysis nor are they loud activist shorts, and their overall negative Tesla view mostly comes out of a more pessimistic reading of the same trends that bulls are interpreting - and for a debt-leveraged company like Tesla it doesn't take a huge shift in parameters to turn the story negative.

One of my favorite recent examples of a Tesla short unintentionally exposing his flawed understanding of accounting and market realities is this Seeking Alpha article from a Tesla short who announced that he went long Tesla for this quarter, because he is projecting a billion dollars in ZEV credits:


This billion dollar estimate is IMO far out to lunch that ignores the demand limited nature of the ZEV/GHG market - here's a bullish financial model that that estimates $100m of ZEV credits for Q3, while noting that $200m might be possible but is optimistic. I.e. there's a factor of 10 smaller ZEV estimate from a bullish Tesla analyst, compared to a Tesla-short who turned long temporarily... How accurate could his previous short opinions have been?

Anyway, I believe you have to keep all these dynamics in mind when following topics/companies that get trolled, and generally assume that the 'social media' and 'financial media' sentiment about a company can be both artificially positive (gets hyped undeservedly) and artificially negative (gets bashed unjustly), and that it's hard to cut through such smoke screens ...
I love you fact checker:D
 
True, but in 10 years EV's won't be niche. The whole debate about Tesla's success isn't really about how well they can do selling 50,000 cars at an ASP of north of $60k, it's about whether then can sell 1 million cars at an ASP of $35k 3 or 4 years from now. We know Toyota, VW and Ford etc can

In 2008 we also knew that Nokia and the other phone giants could produce massive amounts of cheaper phones to compete with the ridiculously priced iPhone and that Apple would be drowned in the sea of competition.

 
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The steady stock price seems unprecedented to me. Even at a 1 year view the current plateau stands out as an anomaly.

Adding onto this thought is the really low volume the past three days. If it was truly a shorts last gasp, I would expect higher volume. Friday I wrote off as market makers setting the price all day and nobody trying to push them off of it. Yesterday and today I’m puzzled by the low volume and no price movement.
 
True, but in 10 years EV's won't be niche. The whole debate about Tesla's success isn't really about how well they can do selling 50,000 cars at an ASP of north of $60k, it's about whether then can sell 1 million cars at an ASP of $35k 3 or 4 years from now. We know Toyota, VW and Ford etc can.

I'm on Tesla's side, I want them to do it, but there's a long way to go before they're competing with Wolfsburg.

I have real doubts about any legacy manufacturer producing quality EVs that are in demand in any real quantities. The simple fact is they really, really, really, really do not want to. So we get the arrival of the E-Tron for example. Which is decent competition... for a 2012 Model S. Practically dead in the water now. And Audi acknowledges by... refusing to stock in dealerships! Can't make this up, folks.

Wake me up when they start investing major dollars in their own battery factories. Until then they are just issuing PR, the proverbial frog in the slowly boiling water...
 
In 2008 we also knew that Nokia and the other phone giants could produce massive amounts of cheaper phones to compete with the ridiculously priced iPhone and that Apple would be drowned in the sea of competition.

The most famous Slashdot article of all time was when the iPod was unveiled:

The BrownFury writes

"At an invitation only event Apple has released their new MP3 player called the iPod. iPod is the size of a deck of cards. 2.4" wide by 4" tall by .78" thick 6.5 ounces. 5 GB HDD, 10 hr battery life, charged via FireWire. Works as a firewire drive as well. Works in conjunctions with iTunes 2. Here are Live updates".

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.
 
"Note the following, important difference: at this point (end of Q3/2018) most Tesla shorts are pretending that they are thinking like pragmatic accountants, they are projecting a (false) image of knowing the truth behind the numbers."

Never let facts, truth, or proven business principles get in the way of your paid rhetorical agenda: what you are paid to do is combat truth, facts, and proven business principles on behalf of parties highly interested in manipulating the outcome of events.

Must be paying well now with such an abundance!
Each week more FUD sausages from the butcher shops, coupled with the now distinctive spike selling.and rhythmic capping.

There was Mr. Cohan, to "give reason" for a spike sale holding price under 300.
Last week, the "shorts" flog out old John Peterson to cover for a sell-down to keep share price under 300.
Yesterday he shows up again writing how he is a short “again.” Quite funny actually.

And on another day the ilutzrious Bob Lutz is trundled out, again, to repeat his old line about Tesla not long for the world. He has been going on the TeeVee and saying the same thing since 2012! Always repeats it in the same way with the same framing, even as the years pass, each one proving him wrong again, only now he seems downright senile!

Shortly before that of course, Bloomberg's Dana Hull hit and run with the huge selldown, mastered not to trigger SEC rules

Another dip was “credited” to another exec leavening Tesla.
Worked for another sell down/news nullification push.
(How many execs left other companies last week? No one will ever know, of course.)

Lately, through the combined efforts of bankers and traders, media companies, along with other assorted analysts and commentators, seems we have actually seen some pretty sunny weather in Shortsville.

And far from being "short" shorts, the shorts have been “going long" in the football way, and: "putting on a clinic."

We watch as they revel in deploying all the techniques they have acquired with malice aforethought. The last few weeks have brought excellent demonstrations of short operations:

The pattern is just so familiar and consistent......

I imagine that in some offices somewhere, shorts have been preparing the sell spikes with FUD cover for tomorrow, and for next week, or next month .... or, maybe, even for “this afternoon,” if a "journalist" can be found (at Bloomberg, say; or NYT, WSJ, or even an old familiar hand at Seeking Alpha). Just get that new headline up, and onto the feeds: Google, Yahoo, quickly to CNBC. Just someone to write a nice reactive hit piece touching on all the negative narrative points again, and then again. And wrap it up in the same repeated narrative bags and boxes, base something on "persons familiar with the matter," while reminding readers/viewers that the stock is down and that somewhere, someone is calling for Eon's head, and that Tesla struggles to meet their deadlines, is always behind, and demand is drying up!

Recently , it looks like some powerful players have playing TSLA like a violin!
They really wanna let us all know who is boss. And 300 is a line in the sand!
That actually makes me laugh.

Really, this is like some kind of “b” movie, that is unintentionally a hilarious comedy!
It’s the FURIOUS battle for 300 (a nice round psychological number, with cinematic references)

Announcer: panning across charts,

the propaganda battle horn sounds,
..... coming into a green field, then the dagger swift and true, turning green to red like blood on the grass......

“Its been a great week for shorts on the field of "battle"!
Initial draw down: successful.
Frequent capping: successful.
Price held under 300.
Volume low. Good news nullified. Enthusiasm checked.
FUD consistently purveyed.
This has been very satisfying for shorts.
They are not ahead, but they successfully held 300! I
ts a victory, though, that’s what they say. Proof that they are right.
Many are telling themselves they have TSLAQ well in hand.
Immmmiiiinnnnniiinnnt bankwuptcy!"

As time goes on, we learn more watching the way these operations develop. It seems important to note that profits on the trades are likely used for further shorting, while losses are simply a business expense. Short term gains or losses are not of primary interest. The objective is long term, by the actions which are short term and immediate, and consistent: to drive down TSLA share value, and hold it down, while constantly drumming the doubt, uncertainty, fear, over time, working to make the company and its CEO distasteful to the public and risky to investors.

The high-level, professional "gun-for-hire" operativee are not acting on an analysis of a weak company, as their publicity and their TV pundits claim, and as one would expect of a true "short." Rather their actions show their secret analysis: of a very strong company, growing at unprecedented speed, and threatening "everything."

Only a truly formidable future opponent would merit so much effort, consistent funding, dedication, and coordination.
Only a growing and powerful company would need to be brought down or eliminated to protect their power.
The weak company with marginal viability that they consistently portray (against all facts, truth and proven business principles) would not warrant the level of unprecedented effort and determination we are witnessing on a daily basis.

Furthermore, it seems clear now that the interests behind the "shorts" know that this quarter, this moment, could likely be the last best chance to find a way inflict any mortal or at least seriously debilitating blow to Tesla. Its clear now that they actually do see the Tesla juggernaut (alien dreadnought?) and know that is growing toward them really, really fast!

It seems quite clear now that some "shorts" are capable of and some even have a history of using means and measures that are explicitly hostile toward truth, and brazenly dismissive of ethics or legality. Why should they, when none is enforced?

Is this what we will face for the foreseeable future if we believe in and invest in TSLA long term?

I agree with the comment that the hatred and bias against Tesla is based on its success, not its flaws. It follows then that more success will bring even more of this phenomena.

For this reason, I have doubt we will see a “short squeeze:” Is there actually any limit to how much and how often these major, well financed, well-connected, hedge fund shorts can work this suppression effect?

With billions at hand to deploy, using huge spike sales, coordinating well-timed and well-spun FUD production (untethered from truth, or regulatory intervention), followed by regular, almost rhythmic price capping..... what is to prevent these players from continuing the program indefinitely? Seems that about $10 billion is actively engaged in this effort today, which has remained remarkably consistent for years now. Meanwhile the market players for these "short" interests continue to sharpen their manipulation skills and get more brazen in their conduct (especially since the "go private" episode).

We can only watch as such nefarious activity, now well documented, and stunningly open and visible, is deployed literally on a daily basis.

When longs "buy and hold" or even buy and sell shares, it does not contribute to volatility in the way that these players do, since they are willing, and able, to "churn" shares, spike them, and deploy tactics to cap rallies, and work at such a scale.

We need to go on learning from these players, but unless and until the SEC intervenes, this activity will likely continue, and probably get worse.

Is there really anything anyone else can do about it?
 
Need some advice on call options-
I am convinced Tesla will have a breakout quarter, but don’t want to add more stock and don’t have enough liquidity in my account anyways. So I was thinking of buying a few call options with the cash available in the account approved for options trading.

What strike date would be best? I expect stock to run up when firm numbers for production and delivery are available. Does it have to be after earnings call? I was thinking October 12, as most numbers would be unofficially out by then, and the upside would baked into the stock price well before earnings call.

This is strictly speculative trading, and I understand I could lose all the money. I am new at options, so consider this learning as well.

I would go with March 2019 calls, you get 2 Q results in.

(Firstly: not advice, secondly if you get hooked on options you are going to lose everything eventually so never ever write options and don't buy them from margin, make sure your wife knows and approves of the worst-case loss beforehand or is of the forgiving type, etc., etc.)

So the problem with say the March 2019 calls is their huge implied volatility cost which comes mainly from their huge long-term time value - much of which time you'll spend waiting for no event you truly expect - i.e. between quarterly reports.

For example the $350 strike calls are $27 currently, so for a single contract you'd have to pay $2,700 cash, plus if you keep them until expiry the stock would have to hit at least $377 for it to be break-even.

So if your thesis is good Q3 results, the timing should match that: i.e. be as close after the Nov 1-2 Q3 report as possible, i.e. Nov 02 expiry or Nov 16 expiry:
  • Nov 02 is quite risky in that while the Q2 update letter was released on Aug 1, often Tesla delays their quarterly report to the 2nd or later day of the month and you might just miss it and the option expires without benefiting from any price action. This might explain why the total open interest is less than ~5,000 options and spreads are wide open.
  • Nov 18 is much more crowded with 110K options and good liquidity, and say the $350 strike price trades at $10.
In terms of ideal strike level: depends on many things, but with a lottery ticket kind of jackpot-or-total-loss bet I'd go for max leverage without assuming a ridiculous price spike: say a mild short squeeze could spike to $400. With such a scenario and cashing out at $400 the $350-$370 strike levels look the most efficient at a quick glance.

If you want maximum leverage then you have to observe that option pricing drops sharply once the strike price goes outside the all time high: that's the historic range that current pricing assumes, and the price bounced from the ATH a couple of times so it is expected to be strong resistance.

But that 'bounces at $380-$390' is an argument based on technical analysis, if the breakthrough is fundamentals driven or short squeeze accelerated then that takes precedence over technical analysis and the price won't significantly bounce and you could trade on that hypothesis: in this case I'd go for a strike price around $440.

If you think the short squeeze is going to be unstoppable due to the magnitude of exposed short interest, i.e. the "milk Chanos to the max" lottery ticket, then I'd go for the highest strike price where you are not paying ridiculous spread to the market maker yet: for example $480 strike with a spread of ~20% looks acceptable, and the $0.50 price offers ridiculous leverage. These will most likely be lost though so buy them as if you bought really expensive ice cream or other luxury consumables. Write them off as a total loss mentally, the day you bought them.

You could also do a mix: if the first tier triggers you probably are in the green already in the end, with a nice profit. If the second tier triggers it's payday, if the third tier it's "set for life" day. :cool:

Note that if you think that either Q3 or Q4 results are going to be the day then it might still make sense to buy two expiries: the March 2019 $350 strike is trading at 2.7x the 2018/Nov $350 strike price. So if you first buy the Nov strike price, and then if it does not work out buy the March strike price (btw., April would be better), you are still only at a ~2x cost point instead of ~2x.

I.e. the best thing in the case of Tesla is to only pay the minimum time premium: which in this case would be to buy the options shortly before the delivery letter, and ride it through to shortly after the quarterly report. Note that at that point if the positive surprise happened as you expected it to, but you think the improved fundamentals have not yet fully been realized, or the short squeeze has not yet run to completion, you can still roll forward your calls week by week, with as much time value paid by your existing profits as you think is justified. (As long as you are certain that there won't be strong corrections, i.e. the fundamentals truly improved and it's not a so-so quarter with some question marks.)

But I could be wrong about any of this - maybe others want to chime in?
 
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In 2008 we also knew that Nokia and the other phone giants could produce massive amounts of cheaper phones to compete with the ridiculously priced iPhone and that Apple would be drowned in the sea of competition.

Nokia didn't, but others did under Android.

Do I think Tesla will be hugely successful? Yes absolutely, I've bet my future on it. :)

Do I think 'other car manufacturers should be worried' (the original comment I replied to)... not so much. Sure there may be a Nokia out there waiting to go bust (maybe Ford, maybe someone like Toyota who seems to be in denial) but the others will be competing with each other, and Tesla. Choice is a good thing.
 
For those getting ready for Q3 results, I'm selling these T-Shirts for $29.95 apiece. Get 'em while they're hot:
upload_2018-9-25_11-39-12.png
 
I argue that being expensive is a niche market, but being electric, expensive, and from a brand new start up is the ultimate niche vehicle. The only transportation device more niche than Teslas on paper are giant sun powered hamster balls for human use.
EVs aren't a niche market anymore. Small compared to the total industry, but something that is growing this fast in terms of share doesn't count as niche in my opinion.

I have real doubts about any legacy manufacturer producing quality EVs that are in demand in any real quantities. The simple fact is they really, really, really, really do not want to. So we get the arrival of the E-Tron for example. Which is decent competition... for a 2012 Model S. Practically dead in the water now. And Audi acknowledges by... refusing to stock in dealerships! Can't make this up, folks.

Wake me up when they start investing major dollars in their own battery factories. Until then they are just issuing PR, the proverbial frog in the slowly boiling water...
PR and some minor hedging I think. We all know how public companies operate. An executive can know that EVs are where the company should go, but if that means retooling and giving up profitable, but short term, sales for something that won't pay off for years he isn't going to put much effort into it. Why jeopardize his own stock options and bonuses when he probably won't be there in 5 years anyway?
 
Adding onto this thought is the really low volume the past three days. If it was truly a shorts last gasp, I would expect higher volume. Friday I wrote off as market makers setting the price all day and nobody trying to push them off of it. Yesterday and today I’m puzzled by the low volume and no price movement.


I wonder what % of investors are on hold until DOJ makes a statement in either direction.

I also wonder if Pif unloaded its 4.whatever% since they went with Lucid, and if so who absorbed it if not all of us.

Regardless, if Tesla makes and sells the cars none of this matters, and if they don’t, none of this matters.

Lastly, all players of significance have a plan. Right now for some % it is wait for whatever reason.

I’d imagine either a DOJ announcement or series of upgrades will bring the volume.
 
Anything stopping Tesla workers from starting their own union and shutting out the UAW?

That's essentially what happened at Tesla Grohmann last year: the Grohmann 'worker council' acted as a de facto union and negotiated a pay rise and other benefits, shutting out IG Metall (the German UAW equivalent with vested interests in the ICE automotive status quo), while still standing up to Tesla management and getting a sweet deal out of it.
 
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Nokia didn't, but others did under Android.

The major players when iPhone was published were Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, Lg Electronics and Sony Ericsson. Out of these five, only Samsung managed to thrive in the changing environment. Others have become niche manufacturers. The biggest manufacturers are now Samsung, Apple, Xiaomi, Huawei and Oppo.

VW "gets it" and might eventually thrive like Samsung in the shift to EVs but may hemorrhage money in the process.
 
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Nokia didn't, but others did under Android.

Do I think Tesla will be hugely successful? Yes absolutely, I've bet my future on it. :)

Do I think 'other car manufacturers should be worried' (the original comment I replied to)... not so much. Sure there may be a Nokia out there waiting to go bust (maybe Ford, maybe someone like Toyota who seems to be in denial) but the others will be competing with each other, and Tesla. Choice is a good thing.

This is a tenuous analogy. Apple holds > 100% of the profit in the smartphone segment (yes, all of their competitors combined have a loss). It's true that Android competes on a feature basis (and I am a diehard Android guy, so I love that). But there is absolutely no competition on the profit side. Android lives for a varied set of reasons having to do with Google's desire to push their other products, etc.

Tesla has the potential to follow this lead--their vertical integration and large battery head-start in terms of owning their battery pipeline rather than outsourcing the whole thing, their brand loyalty, etc. They very well could be the only EV maker able to sell their EVs at a profit for quite some time.
 
The major players when iPhone was published were Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, Lg Electronics and Sony Ericsson. Out of these five, only Samsung managed to thrive in the changing environment. Others have become niche manufacturers. The biggest manufacturers are now Samsung, Apple, Xiaomi, Huawei and Oppo.

VW "gets it" and might eventually thrive like Samsung in the shift to EVs but may hemorrhage money in the process.
I'd also add that Samsung survived/thrived by basically copying the Iphone.
 
The major players when iPhone was pubslihed were Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, Lg Electronics and Sony Ericsson. Out of these five, only Samsung managed to thrive in the changing environment. Others have become niche manufacturers and have been replaced by other firms. The biggest manufacturers are now Samsung, Apple, Xiaomi, Huawei and Oppo.

WV "gets it" and might eventually thrive like Samsung in the shift to EVs but may hemorrhage money in the process.

OK good point about more than a couple of companies fading away (you missed BlackBerry who probably fell hardest of all) but it supports your point in regards to phones. It doesn't, however, make it any more applicable to cars.

The car world is completely different - the (majority) move from ICE to BEV on the roads will take 40 or more years. The move from what phones looked like in 2006 to what they look like now being the majority of sales, took about 4 years and that industry was relatively young. Obviously companies are more vulnerable to rapidly changing trends, than slower changing ones.

While the smart phone analogy is interesting, it's not as relevant as it may first seem.
 
OK good point about more than a couple of companies fading away (you missed BlackBerry who probably fell hardest of all) but it supports your point in regards to phones. It doesn't, however, make it any more applicable to cars.

The car world is completely different - the (majority) move from ICE to BEV on the roads will take 40 or more years. The move from what phones looked like in 2006 to what they look like now being the majority of sales, took about 4 years and that industry was relatively young. Obviously companies are more vulnerable to rapidly changing trends, than slower changing ones.

While the smart phone analogy is interesting, it's not as relevant as it may first seem.

Yeah, I agree that the process will be much slower. But the industry is also slower to adapt. There also isn't enough battery capacity for everyone - there was/is no such resource limitation on phone production. What do you think happens to firms that have not secured battery capacity and consumers begin to notice that ICE vehicles are inferior to BEVs?

I will personally keep my old ICE longer than usual and wait for a suitable BEV (i.e. model 3) to become available in my country and I expect many others to eventually do the same. The result is plunging sales and shift to manufacturers that have the capacity to produce BEVs.
 
The car world is completely different - the (majority) move from ICE to BEV on the roads will take 40 or more years.

Yeah, so that baseless assumption is a big, gaping flaw in your logic.

It only took 10 years in Norway:

Evolution_Norgewian_passenger_car_market_share_by_fuel.png


... and they did it while ICE cars were still largely superior in many areas, most of all price, so despite generous incentives EVs were a leap of faith for many - 10 years ago it was also painful to use an EV as there was very little infrastructure.

I'd not be surprised if this transition happened much faster in other advanced economies, less than 5-6 years in the U.S. for EVs to have a majority market share in new car sales (depending on how fast Tesla can build their Gigafactories).

This might be further accelerated by the ICE car companies going bankrupt from the sudden drop in ICE demand and increasingly delayed/deferred/cancelled ICE purchases by customers who are aware of EVs and are waiting for the right one, which scenario ICE carmakers are not prepared for, at all, I think.

And that drop in demand is already happening.
 
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Yesterday and today I’m puzzled by the low volume and no price movement.

So my take is that the bets are largely in place, what happens is quiet accumulation or quiet selling, without some new event it makes little sense to trade too aggressively now, as Q3 deliveries might falsify both the bull and the bear thesis ...

But yes, after last week I'd have expected a bit of an up-move too, in preparation to next week's delivery numbers, as shorts are probably more risk-exposed.
 
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