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TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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A week ago I started transferring my Roth IRA from my bank to a different broker that will let me go all in on TSLA. My account got liquidated this week before the big stock sell off. Thanks TMC! Now if they would hurry and transfer the funds before TSLA hits 400...

I also just did this per the excellent info. off of this thread. Fortunately my broker had the option I just had not set up a Roth yet. Unfortunately had to sell the shares (did some profit taking at 362) to transfer the funds. Now it's just the test of nerves as to when to buy back in!
 
It's a question of total float that affects SP. If you increase total float, we can expect some changes in SP. Instead of 171 M shares, I should use the total float.

In terms of how much of the net assets, it's a complicated calculation to figure out what each share is now worth compared to earlier. The post by JBRR above shows how complicated the whole thing is.

There's two topics intermixed here: the effect of paying off the bonds in stock and the effect of short selling.

Short Selling
If you have a company worth $100 and they have issued 4 shares, those shares are worth $25 each. If a short seller decides to sell these 25% ownership shares to more than 4 people, then they've got >4 people running around thinking they own a quarter of the company, but it doesn't mean those those shares are worth less than $25. Regardless of any shortselling, a quarter ownership of $100 is always worth $25. You just have perhaps 5 people that own a quarter ($125) and 1 person that owns a negative quarter (-$25) for the same $100 net value.

So the simple act of short selling doesn't affect the share price directly. If someone promises me that I can own 10% of AAPL for $100, that would be a fantastic deal even if they have sold the same thing to a billion other people. I wouldn't decline to buy 10% of AAPL for $100 - I would gladly buy (assuming the seller had the US treasury like liquidity to recover from such a foolish move). Following through on that is their problem.

So let's say the shorts start dumping shares on the market. Those shares are still worth whatever percentage of the companies value they are equal to. If the price drops to less than that, they are a deal and a rational market would scoop them up.

So short selling in itself doesn't change the value of the shares. But there can be indirect effects. If the market is flooded and the price drops, that could be perceived by buyers a loss of interest in the stock, rather than the sale on shares that it is, so it creates the perception of negativity which can have an effect but not an easily quantified one. And the opposite is also true. When shorts cover they tighten up the supply of shares available will can increase the price, but again the value of the company hasn't changed so the shares just become overpriced temporarily. That's why short squeezes don't last (see VW). Short selling causes manipulative effects, but not long term fundamental effects.

Stock Issues
The value of a company is its net assets + future profits. Ignoring future profits for a minute, a company with $2 million in cash and $1 million in debt has a net value of $1 million. If they had two shares they'd be worth $500,000 each. If they decided to pay off that $1 million in debt by issuing two more stocks for $500,000, the company would then have the same $2 million in cash but no debt for a net value of $2 million. Since there are now 4 shares, the stock price would still be exactly the same. That is why your calculation of a $3 dip was wrong. You added to the share count but not the net assets. Total float is besides the point.

Of course stock issues can also affect expectations for future profit. In Tesla's case their future profits are highly dependant on their ability to grow, so the more they can free up cash by exchange debt for stock, the better. Sure the future profits are divided amongst more folks, but the future profits are also larger because there is an extra half billion dollars to invest in growth. So this sort of an action where debt is exchanged for stock is a good thing for Tesla as it improves their chances of realizing the hoped for growth. That's why TSLA has almost always risen after every share issue. We can safely say this share issue will be neutral or positive for the share price. The only reason why it wouldn't be is if the market thinks it also indicates some other negative news, like Tesla's doing this because they're not actually as profitable as thought. When secondary offerings in general cause a decline in the share price, it's not because of the secondary offering directly, but because it can indicate that the company is doing worse than hoped.

Bottom Line
Short selling and share issuances don't change the long term value of the shares due to simple dilution as you're attesting. There are side topics like hedging, but they don't change this fact.
 
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What are the odds the “modded but fully road legal autonomous transport cars” are Model 3s? Would be fantastic marketing event for Tesla.
 
There's two topics intermixed here: the effect of paying off the bonds in stock and the effect of short selling.

Short Selling
If you have a company worth $100 and they have issued 4 shares, those shares are worth $25 each. If a short seller decides to sell these 25% ownership shares to more than 4 people, then they've got >4 people running around thinking they own a quarter of the company, but it doesn't mean those those shares are worth less than $25. Regardless of any shortselling, a quarter ownership of $100 is always worth $25. You just have perhaps 5 people that own a quarter ($125) and 1 person that owns a negative quarter (-$25) for the same $100 net value.

So the simple act of short selling doesn't affect the share price directly. If someone promises me that I can own 10% of AAPL for $100, that would be a fantastic deal even if they have sold the same thing to a billion other people. I wouldn't decline to buy 10% of AAPL for $100 - I would gladly buy (assuming the seller had the US treasury like liquidity to recover from such a foolish move). Following through on that is their problem.

So let's say the shorts start dumping shares on the market. Those shares are still worth whatever percentage of the companies value they are equal to. If the price drops to less than that, they are a deal and a rational market would scoop them up.

So short selling in itself doesn't change the value of the shares. But there can be indirect effects. If the market is flooded and the price drops, that could be perceived by buyers a loss of interest in the stock, rather than the sale on shares that it is, so it creates the perception of negativity which can have an effect but not an easily quantified one. And the opposite is also true. When shorts cover they tighten up the supply of shares available will can increase the price, but again the value of the company hasn't changed so the shares just become overpriced temporarily. That's why short squeezes don't last (see VW). Short selling causes manipulative effects, but not long term fundamental effects.

Stock Issues
The value of a company is its net assets + future profits. Ignoring future profits for a minute, a company with $2 million in cash and $1 million in debt has a net value of $1 million. If they had two shares they'd be worth $500,000 each. If they decided to pay off that $1 million in debt by issuing two more stocks for $500,000, the company would then have the same $2 million in cash but no debt for a net value of $2 million. Since there are now 4 shares, the stock price would still be exactly the same. That is why your calculation of a $3 dip was wrong. You added to the share count but not the net assets. Total float is besides the point.

Of course stock issues can also affect expectations for future profit. In Tesla's case their future profits are highly dependant on their ability to grow, so the more they can free up cash by exchange debt for stock, the better. Sure the future profits are divided amongst more folks, but the future profits are also larger because there is an extra half billion dollars to invest in growth. So this sort of an action where debt is exchanged for stock is a good thing for Tesla as it improves their chances of realizing the hoped for growth. That's why TSLA has almost always risen after every share issue. We can safely say this share issue will be neutral or positive for the share price. The only reason why it wouldn't be is if the market thinks it also indicates some other negative news, like Tesla's doing this because they're not actually as profitable as thought. When secondary offerings in general cause a decline in the share price, it's not because of the secondary offering directly, but because it can indicate that the company is doing worse than hoped.

Bottom Line
Short selling and share issuances don't change the long term value of the shares due to simple dilution as you're attesting. There are side topics like hedging, but they don't change this fact.


*not* ignoring future value for a second: take your company with $2 million in assets and $1 million in debt. Add a 50% chance of rising to $4 million in assets in the future. Each share, in that case, is worth $1 million(expected value of company is $1 million current value + $1 million probability-weighted future value). The company issued 2 additional shares for $500k and pays back debt. The company is now worth $3.5 million($2 million in assets + 50% chance of rising to $5 million). With 4 shares, that’s $875k/share.

(Yes, the change in cash on hand likely changes that probability, the degree of a rise, or both, but that effect is non-deterministic)
 
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Yes, >90%.
Source? I believe they want to have a good supply of 'inventory' so they can get those people that at the last minute want to get the full tax credit before reduction.

I have three reservations between my wife and I..Waiting for possible air suspension next year... Both my wife and I have been emailed multiple times in the last week to see if we want a '3' before year end. I suspect it would come from one of the vehicles you have described.
 
I think they are pods and skates running in the tunnel, which are based on the Model X platform.

I know thats the end goal - but would they be ready yet? And would they be road legal? And would Elon call them “cars” like in the tweet?

Right now I would love to see all those reporters / officials at the event travelling in Autonomous Model 3 cars
 
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Unfortunately, ZTE was "just" political shenanigans. In the present case the US persuaded Canada to arrest a high ranking corporate officer for extradition. This isn't going to be pretty unless the US reverses itself which would be an unthinkable show of weakness.

IMO best case is that things go slowly, dragging out without real resolution and finally releasing the CFO. Not good for her, but for the markets. If she is actually extradited and put to trial things will not go well. I know I wouldn't want to be US businessman traveling in asia at that point. I'd expect all sorts of "security delays" and "extraordinary procedures".

In short, this incident is not just political, it is extremely serious and practically requires a severe response from China.

Agreed. If they have the sense to release her back to China (they can do whatever they like to Huawei as a company) then things will settle down. If they don't... it could get REALLY serious, as in removal of diplomatic relations, embargos, etc... China can survive that. The US can't.
 
OT

Geez, if you’re conflating China’s human rights record with the US I’m flabbergasted at your viewpoint

I know China's behavior in Xinkiang is *far* worse than anything the US has done (since the end of the lynching era), yes. I'm just being a cynical old "trust no one" type.

Fact is China imprisons a *lot* fewer people than the US does, and most of the people in US prisons are imprisoned on spurious grounds. But China is a hell of a lot more racist so it's far worse to be an ethnic minority in China than in the US.
 
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What are the odds the “modded but fully road legal autonomous transport cars” are Model 3s? Would be fantastic marketing event for Tesla.

No reason full-autonomy couldn't be debuted on any post-Oct 2016 Model S or X. It's the new plugin computer board that's critical, but it's been designed as a plugin replacement for any current production Tesla.

I suspect the demo will be done with a Model X, since it has the highest seating capacity. But I won't be surprised either if Tesla debuts a 'mini-bus' based on the X platform.

Remember, one-off prototypes are easy, volume production is hard. ;)

Cheers!
 
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What are the odds the “modded but fully road legal autonomous transport cars” are Model 3s? Would be fantastic marketing event for Tesla.

OT

Cool. Looking forward to seeing how they make the ground to tunnel elevators safe, without making it either ugly or humungously expensive. On the promo vid, it was this dead drop hole in the road.
 
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I think you could be over-simplifying about weak/strong "people". People hold 1/4 of what institutional investors hold. So, T Rowe Price being #1 institutional investor, their shares are likely in mutual funds, which belong to peoples 401Ks etc.
If people panic about macros in general and move their money into bonds concentrated funds, then TRowe has to sell enough stock to cover that amount. It could be manager's decision whether to sell stock of all companies in the fund equally or most appreciated or underperformers etc.
In any case, people who panic and sell may not know at all their fund contains TSLA and the act of selling has nothing to do with TSLA.
Yet, that could be the source of majority of TSLA trades that we see. In other words, there could be a lot more randomness to it than thoughts and considerations given specifically to TSLA.

This is why Bogle warned about the dominance of mutual funds, particularly passive index trackers. Once they're the majority of funds, they do pretty weird stuff to the market... a lot like algos do. There's not much real, human-decision-driven trading underlying it...
 
I just looked up the balance sheet of the Q3 report. I've got absolutely zero knowledge about balance sheets, but it seems that Tesla has about $9 billion in debt if I understand it correctly... Some of that debt has a fairly high interest rate I think. I assume any debt that came with SolarCity had a really high interest rate at least. Just thinking: Wouldn't it be better to use cash to pay down the debt that carry high interest rate? Could this be the reason for only paying half the convertible notes in cash?
Could be part of it. However:

-- the highest interest rate is 7.7%. Tesla can get a much better return than that from investing in expansion.
-- most of the high-interest-rate debt is backed by solar panels or solar loans and isn't due until *2033 to 2049*. These have pretty good rates for their long durations.
-- Much of the long-term debt probably can't be prepaid; a lot of bonds are non-callable. Tesla doesn't save any money by paying them off early.
-- Most of the rest of the high-interest-rate debt (above 5.3%) amounts to peanuts; $2.4 million in vehicle loans, $31.5 million in SREC loans, a couple of term loans backing solar deals for $181.7 million and $171.7 million respectivly, the RAC Facility at $210 million.

Tesla might pay off the Term Loan due in December 2018 ($181.7 million); we'll find out in the Q4 report.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm getting a bit confused when looking at the balance sheet. There is something called "Current portion of long-term debt and capital leases" which totals about $2.1 billion. And then there is something called "Long-term debt and capital leases, net of current portion" totalling about $9.7 billion... What's the difference?
Amount due within one year vs. later than one year. No shame in not understanding that -- it took me years to learn that obscure piece of accounting trivia (it was harder to find out what it meant before the Internet).
 
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