[UK] ebike discussion

[zoros]

Bouba - when I mentioned 'licences' around Escooters, in that those who had licences (normal driving licences) would be penalised with 6 points. Those who don't (children, teens, adults who don't have a licence in the first place, and others) - can't obviously be penalised the 6 points!
In my experience - most escooter "drivers" are under the age of 16 - so they don't care about "points".
I suspect that those adults with driving licences don't actually realise the consequences of them being stopped by the police. (Fine AND 6 points).

 

[Bouba]

Bouba - when I mentioned 'licences' around Escooters, in that those who had licences (normal driving licences) would be penalised with 6 points. Those who don't (children, teens, adults who don't have a licence in the first place, and others) - can't obviously be penalised the 6 points!
In my experience - most escooter "drivers" are under the age of 16 - so they don't care about "points".
I suspect that those adults with driving licences don't actually realise the consequences of them being stopped by the police. (Fine AND 6 points).

I understood you....I’m an old man (with a license) and ride an e-scooter (in France)...it doesn’t seem fair that non-license riders get a lighter sentence...I have no idea what the situation is in France.
Here’s a question...say you lost your license (too many points or drink driving) so you now ride an e-scooter. If you commit an infringement, would you also get points on your new license when you get it back ?

 

[zoros]

Bouba - Of course the points go onto your "new" licence. And you go to prison if you commit further criminal traffic violations in the UK if you then exceed 12 points (again). OR dependent on the circumstances - you are banned again for longer.

 

[Bouba]

Bouba - Of course the points go onto your "new" licence. And you go to prison if you commit further criminal traffic violations in the UK if you then exceed 12 points (again). OR dependent on the circumstances - you are banned again for longer.

It does seem unfair if owning a license can lead to prison but not if you don’t have one. But I believe you are correct ....I must check on the French law...but I ride my e-scooter very carefully out of fear...when you are young you bounce...when you’re old you splatter

 

[zoros]

Bouba - forget licences just for a second = what if you hit a mother and child or collide with a frail person?
Could you live with yourself?
Do you have insurance cover?

 

[Bouba]

Bouba - forget licences just for a second = what if you hit a mother and child or collide with a frail person?
Could you live with yourself?
Do you have insurance cover?

Yes...I am insured....probably the only insured scooter rider on the road (and I only ride it on the road and cycle lane)...the speed is also restricted (by law) to 25 kph....but once when I was in my Tesla driving at over 60 kph...I was overtaken (not undertaken) by an e-scooter with an unhelmeted rider

 

[GRiLLA]

It does seem unfair if owning a license can lead to prison but not if you don’t have one. But I believe you are correct ....I must check on the French law...but I ride my e-scooter very carefully out of fear...when you are young you bounce...when you’re old you splatter

Riding without a license can also lead to prison. It's exactly the same as driving a car without a license.

 

[yessuz]

Bouba - forget licences just for a second = what if you hit a mother and child or collide with a frail person?
Could you live with yourself?
Do you have insurance cover?

can you ask the same question about bicycle? what is the difference between bicycle (with or without e-motor for that matter) and e-scooter? that you are standing on one and sitting on another?! You do not need license to ride a bicycle.

but let's put this topic away as we have saying in Lithuania: deeper into the forest - more trees you meet

 

[Bouba]

can you ask the same question about bicycle? what is the difference between bicycle (with or without e-motor for that matter) and e-scooter? that you are standing on one and sitting on another?! You do not need license to ride a bicycle.

but let's put this topic away as we have saying in Lithuania: deeper into the forest - more trees you meet

It gets worse…mine has a folding seat…if I sit on it, it becomes a motorcycle..and needs a license plate and cannot go on the cycle lane with the other bicycle riders who are sitting down!!!

 

[Steve-R]

E-scooters are currently classed as a motorised vehicle and as such, in the UK, riders need to meet specific requirements such as having a license (not sure on the helmet) and insurance when used on public land and this is currently limited to only the rented scooters as the rental includes insurance, although as we all know this doesn't stop private owners.

Legal e-bikes are limited to 15.5mph and require riders to peddle to receive that power assist, this is different to those"e-bikes" that have been modified to either not requiring peddling (effectively electric motorbikes) or exceed 15.5mph and as such are again classed as motorised vehicle and require license, helmet and insurance. It's these that you often see the food delivery riders using, e-bikes purchased from a respectable cycle shop can be ridden anywhere a normal peddle bike can as they meet UK/EU regulations.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the e-scooters as a non-rental one knocked me off my bike (whilst I was on a dedicated cycle-only path) and I cracked/bruised some ribs and put a dent in my helmet, which I had to then throw away and replace. The only good thing was the handle bar caught him in the groin and hopefully taught him a lesson, since he had just careless overtaken two other escooter riders! I have the footage as I was wearing a go-pro as usually on the road and get lots of dangerous passes.

 

[yessuz]

E-scooters are currently classed as a motorised vehicle and as such, in the UK, riders need to meet specific requirements such as having a license (not sure on the helmet) and insurance when used on public land and this is currently limited to only the rented scooters as the rental includes insurance, although as we all know this doesn't stop private owners.

Legal e-bikes are limited to 15.5mph and require riders to peddle to receive that power assist, this is different to those"e-bikes" that have been modified to either not requiring peddling (effectively electric motorbikes) or exceed 15.5mph and as such are again classed as motorised vehicle and require license, helmet and insurance. It's these that you often see the food delivery riders using, e-bikes purchased from a respectable cycle shop can be ridden anywhere a normal peddle bike can as they meet UK/EU regulations.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the e-scooters as a non-rental one knocked me off my bike (whilst I was on a dedicated cycle-only path) and I cracked/bruised some ribs and put a dent in my helmet, which I had to then throw away and replace. The only good thing was the handle bar caught him in the groin and hopefully taught him a lesson, since he had just careless overtaken two other escooter riders! I have the footage as I was wearing a go-pro as usually on the road and get lots of dangerous passes.

Steve, I would like to point out, that most of the food delivery riders use bikes where they do not need to pedal.
the thing is that you can use your muscle power to ride e-scooter as well.

and that's the grey zone IMHO. and also another fact that UK thinks backwards. It is in every city in Europe - one of the means to travel in town etc. UK just made things too complicated.

the same time, I wonder, what can you do to the cyclist who rides his road bike with all gear and sh!t on the A or B road when there's a perfectly nice bike/pedestrian road on the left of him?

 

[init6]

Sorry, again, these numbers don't mean anything.

Over 140 people die on bikes in the UK per year, but on it's own there is no relevance in the numbers. Only fatalities per mile travelled has any relevance and is comparable to other forms of travel. Almost certainly passenger cars are the most dangerous thing on our roads.

E-scooters 13 casualties per million miles

For comparison
rate per billion miles Killed/Seriously Injured

• Motorcyclist user death / serious injury rate = 123 / 1,980
• Pedestrian death / serious injury rate = 27 / 406
• Cyclist death / serious injury rate = 23 / 1,041
• Car occupant death / serious injury rate = 3 / 44
• Van occupant death / serious injury rate = 1 / 7
• Truck occupant death / serious injury rate = 1 / 8
• Bus occupant death / serious injury rate = 1 / 141

I'll let you do the arithmetic.

 

[Steve-R]

Steve, I would like to point out, that most of the food delivery riders use bikes where they do not need to pedal.
the thing is that you can use your muscle power to ride e-scooter as well.

That's what I say, most use bikes that do not need to pedal, and if they have a motor they are not classed as legal peddle assist but rather motorbikes and subject to different legislation, throttle controlled peddle bikes were stopped a while back and bikes limited to 2mph walk assist when not peddling.

and that's the grey zone IMHO. and also another fact that UK thinks backwards. It is in every city in Europe - one of the means to travel in town etc. UK just made things too complicated.

It's not that the UK is thinking backwards, it's just not updated existing laws to meeting current scenarios and possibilities, technology nearly always out paces legislation. Just because other countries do it doesn't mean it works or is right, the Netherlands has massive segregated cycle paths but people over here complain when space is used for them!

the same time, I wonder, what can you do to the cyclist who rides his road bike with all gear and sh!t on the A or B road when there's a perfectly nice bike/pedestrian road on the left of him?

Nothing, as the law gives me/us the right to use our bikes on the public highway, whereas drivers are subject to a revokable license to permit use. I've seen drivers on the cyclepath before, along with pedestrians and they are often in a worse state of repair than the roads. People complain about bikes on the footpaths, and you're moaning about bikes on the road yet want to add e-scooters, at which point you'll complain they're in the way on the road or footpath!

 

[yessuz]

That's what I say, most use bikes that do not need to pedal, and if they have a motor they are not classed as legal peddle assist but rather motorbikes and subject to different legislation, throttle controlled peddle bikes were stopped a while back and bikes limited to 2mph walk assist when not peddling.


It's not that the UK is thinking backwards, it's just not updated existing laws to meeting current scenarios and possibilities, technology nearly always out paces legislation. Just because other countries do it doesn't mean it works or is right, the Netherlands has massive segregated cycle paths but people over here complain when space is used for them!

Nothing, as the law gives me/us the right to use our bikes on the public highway, whereas drivers are subject to a revokable license to permit use. I've seen drivers on the cyclepath before, along with pedestrians and they are often in a worse state of repair than the roads. People complain about bikes on the footpaths, and you're moaning about bikes on the road yet want to add e-scooters, at which point you'll complain they're in the way on the road or footpath!

I moan about bike on the road when there is bike road. not footpath

 

[Steve-R]

I moan about bike on the road when there is bike road. not footpath

I never said you did, but others who want cyclists off the road do but unfortunately for you, there is no law to say cyclists have to use the very few cycle lanes there are. So like with tractors and horse riders, you will just have to be inconvenienced for most likely just a few minutes as you sit in warm/cool comfort not exerting any real effort, before continuing with your day.

 

[GRiLLA]

E-scooters 13 casualties per million miles

For comparison
rate per billion miles Killed/Seriously Injured

• Motorcyclist user death / serious injury rate = 123 / 1,980
• Pedestrian death / serious injury rate = 27 / 406
• Cyclist death / serious injury rate = 23 / 1,041
• Car occupant death / serious injury rate = 3 / 44
• Van occupant death / serious injury rate = 1 / 7
• Truck occupant death / serious injury rate = 1 / 8
• Bus occupant death / serious injury rate = 1 / 141

I'll let you do the arithmetic.

That figure of 13 per million miles is highly questionable, given that its based on the UK in 2021 where there were 3 deaths.

This article makes a better attempt, and is clear about the challenge of calculating this figure - E-scooters: how safe are they? – BJGP Life

So 1 death per 22.5 million miles, or 44 deaths per billion miles.

Then if we look at your comparison it's an averaged figure over 10 years from 2013-2022, and is heavily distorted by Covid years.

We should ban motorbikes.

 

[init6]

That figure of 13 per million miles is highly questionable, given that its based on the UK in 2021 where there were 3 deaths.

This article makes a better attempt, and is clear about the challenge of calculating this figure - E-scooters: how safe are they? – BJGP Life

So 1 death per 22.5 million miles, or 44 deaths per billion miles.

Then if we look at your comparison it's an averaged figure over 10 years from 2013-2022, and is heavily distorted by Covid years.

We should ban motorbikes.

See, you just needed a nudge to answer your own question

 

[Js1977]

We should ban motorbikes.

Now go wash your mouth

 

[GRiLLA]

Now go wash your mouth

I knew an A&E doctor that would only refer to motorcyclists as 'donors'.

 

[Js1977]

I knew an A&E doctor that would only refer to motorcyclists as 'donors'.

I used to own a kebab shop so Im fully aware of what a donor is

If I didn't have the need for some adrenaline, I dont think I would have an EV... You dont need to know an A&E doctor by the way... Its plastered all over YouTube. Besides, way before I wanted a motorbike I saw grey matter splattered all over a roman stone wall from a friend I kew. My cousin actually wearing the helmet properly did survive, barely