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Understanding PGE/SVCE electricity bills/TrueUP
- Thread starter SMAlset
- Start date
My negative right now is much larger. This is why I am looking at putting EV charging stations in the garage. If after winter leaving my house at 70 degrees does not use all the power, then maybe will have some friends come over and charge their EV's for free.
RKCRLR
Active Member
I'm going to be facing the decision on whether or not to opt out of Pioneer next September at True-Up. So far I have been a net producer. My goal is to come as close as possible to a $0 true-up without going over. As far as I can tell, there isn't an advantage to going with Pioneer.
If I achieve a $0 true up with PG&E, would I better or worse off with Pioneer if I used the same amount of power at the same time periods?
I'm required to be on EV2A because of SGIP and, as far as I can tell, I would still need to be on EV2A with Pioneer.
If I achieve a $0 true up with PG&E, would I better or worse off with Pioneer if I used the same amount of power at the same time periods?
I'm required to be on EV2A because of SGIP and, as far as I can tell, I would still need to be on EV2A with Pioneer.
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Since you are a net producer, Pioneer is paying $0.005 more per kWh than PG&E which at $0.03/kWh is 16.7% more.
I didn't think that part about SGIP and EV2A was correct, but this page Discover the Self-Generation Incentive Program for Residential Customers says the following
I wonder if you can hold PG&E to this statement to allow the Powerwalls to be charged at the very low off-peak rate? Yes, Tesla would have to agree to enable it, but this is already done in many locations including when Stormwatch turns on.
If you have an EV and charge on Off Peak, its not obvious that you would save money with Pioneer. Also, if you can rate arbitrage with PWs, the difference between Peak and Partial Peak is greater with PG&E. You would have to use you own numbers to see if Pioneer was an advantage or not. For me it is not
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RKCRLR
Active Member
I'm a net producer but my goal is to get to zero surplus to save cycles on my Powerwalls. If I get close then the $0.005 is insignificant. From the example table on Pioneer's website I would be paying more on EV2A due to the additional charges they have.
My question is if I were to achieve my zero surplus goal with PG&E, would I pay more or less to Pioneer if I were to use the same amount of power during the same TOU periods? And I don't have an EV.
PWs don't change the amount of surplus. They can only change the rate during which you use power from the grid. Unless you change your usage habits, what you produce in solar and what you use from the grid, will not change with PWs.
RKCRLR
Active Member
PG&E bookkeeps the energy produced during the different TOU periods. So as I reduce the time the Powerwalls discharge during peak hours the closer I come to being a net consumer. Less the Powerwalls discharge the fewer cycles on the Powerwalls. If I were to put the Powerwalls in Backup only mode I would be a net consumer because of the different TOU rates.
If you are coming over as a new customer now with a PCIA Vintage Year of 2021 (through 6/30/22) that has a rate of $0.02887 then you would save money.
| EV2 Period | Rate | PCIA 2021 | FFS | PIO Generation | PGE Generation | Diff | PG&E Distribution | PIO Total |
| Summer Peak | 0.13810 | 0.02887 | 0.00048 | 0.16745 | 0.18150 | -0.01405 | 0.25405 | 0.42150 |
| Summer Part-Peak | 0.09822 | 0.02887 | 0.00048 | 0.12757 | 0.13679 | -0.00922 | 0.18827 | 0.31584 |
| Summer Off-Peak | 0.06152 | 0.02887 | 0.00048 | 0.09087 | 0.09565 | -0.00478 | 0.02739 | 0.11826 |
| Winter Peak | 0.08736 | 0.02887 | 0.00048 | 0.11671 | 0.12462 | -0.00791 | 0.18382 | 0.30053 |
| Winter Part-Peak | 0.07623 | 0.02887 | 0.00048 | 0.10558 | 0.11213 | -0.00655 | 0.17960 | 0.28518 |
| Winter Off-Peak | 0.05528 | 0.02887 | 0.00048 | 0.08463 | 0.08860 | -0.00397 | 0.03439 | 0.11902 |
That table was based on the following unbundled rates.
I think that Pioneer is showing the higher PCIA rates as they started first customer transfers in February 2018 which the the PCIE Vintage Year 2017 and happens to have the highest rate.
you are using Net Producer/Consumer with respect to rates. Usually, net producer means you generate Surplus energy. This is compensated at a higher rate with Pioneer. But, PWs would not change you from a Net Consumer to a Net Producer. They could change you from positive NEM to Negative NEM as is the case with me
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They are included in every electrical tariff document. Tariffs
EV2 - https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV2 (Sch).pdf
how come these aren't the same?
Because that table was for rates that were effective as of May 1, 2020 and PCIA rates change 1-2 times a year from my experience.
I finally found the Franchise Fee Surcharge rates: https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-FFS.pdf
The 2021 Vintage Year rate is $0.00062 which is slightly higher than my 2017 Vintage Year rate of $0.00048. I have no idea why this rate is variable, but PG&E so
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A PCIA vintage rate can go down after it has been in effect already? The vintage 2020 PCIA rate in that Sonoma Clean Power schedule is higher that the one you posted in the tariffBecause that table was for rates that were effective as of May 1, 2020 and PCIA rates change 1-2 times a year from my experience.
I finally found the Franchise Fee Surcharge rates: https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-FFS.pdf
The 2021 Vintage Year rate is $0.00062 which is slightly higher than my 2017 Vintage Year rate of $0.00048. I have no idea why this rate is variable, but PG&E so
Yes, just like any other tariff rate. Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down. This is why I also said earlier that the Pioneer PCIA page is misleading.
I posted a historical table earlier in this thread that summarized a PG&E SolarChoice doc. There is only one number for each year so it isn't all inclusive of every rate change that has happened.
Theoretically this rate should be on a downward trend as the generation contracts that were signed up to the Vintage Year expire. There is an interesting set of slides on the cal-cca.org site https://cal-cca.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Evie-Kahl_Buchalter-Presentation.pdf, but they are from 2018. There is some heavy accounting math on page 3 that @holeydonut might be interested in, but slides 9 and 24 show this dropping significantly in 2025/26 and again in 2039/40.
RKCRLR
Active Member
I'm coming from the aspect of how PG&E treats it. If the sum of my energy charges at True-Up is negative (PG&E would owe me money) then PG&E throws that calculation out the window and I get compensated at ~$0.03/kWh for surplus generation. If the sum is positive then I owe PG&E for those energy charges.
So my objective is to get as close to zero energy charges as possible without going positive. For the same amount of energy, the more I draw during peak the higher my energy charges; the more of that power I draw off-peak, the lower my energy charges. So I can influence my energy charges with my Powerwalls by altering the amount of time I run off the Powerwalls during peak hours.
I may end up being a large over producer. But, I could care less. First goal is to keep the wife happen. For the first time ever, my house is 70 to 72 degrees. Using 40 to 60kwh a day. Summer was nice in the low 70's. So if I only get back .03kw, who cares. Not going to waste time playing with settings.
