[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[stopcrazypp]

This is not start the whole ydeevne vs performance vs motor power - but this is just to show you how Tesla uses the word ydeevne on the Danish site. Along the use next to the HP it is also used describing the model X. Here they use the word Ydeevne as Performance, which is the meaning of the word.

I commented on this on other thread. It looks like a bad translation by whoever translated the Denmark site. The numbers are exactly the same as the Norway (which said "motorkraft") and EU site (which said "motor power"). I conceded that those in Denmark may have a case (even though it is bad translation, that is Tesla's fault). However, the "motor power" point still applies to other countries.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...hread/page11?p=1120913&viewfull=1#post1120913

 

[rns-e]

I commented on this on other thread. It looks like a bad translation by whoever translated the Denmark site. The numbers are exactly the same as the Norway (which said "motorkraft") and EU site (which said "motor power"). I conceded that those in Denmark may have a case (even though it is bad translation, that is Tesla's fault). However, the "motor power" point still applies to other countries.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...hread/page11?p=1120913&viewfull=1#post1120913

As I wrote, it was not to start the discussion again, just to show it in a place where it is obvious. So no pointing fingers or anything from my side. I agree that Tesla has the responsibility for the translation, so we are on the same page

 

[Alipapa]

I'm at that point where I think it would actually be hilarious if Tesla sent out a 0-60 mph stopwatch app that stated at 7 mph And having Elon do a big launch of the app - "Oehhmm, this is the fastest stopwatch in the world, he heh eh"

This is so funny lol

 

[wk057]

View attachment 90858

Based on this video I'm going to go ahead and start patting myself on the back with my prediction that the P90D/Ludicrous still doesn't actually put out 691 HP. Granted this video appears to have been done at about 75% state of charge, but even a proportional increase based on the P85D numbers doesn't quite give us 691 at 100%.

The video shows the power meter close to but not touching the 480kW mark on the meter. So, I'll just round up to 480kW to give Tesla an edge on the calculations. So that'd mean Ludicrous mode adds about 65kW or 87 real horsepower to the P85D. That puts the power from the pack at around 644 HP. Still 46 shy of the originally advertised 691 HP.

The number I posted was off the top of my head with rounded math, but it's probably close to the truth. There is definitely voltage sag. You can't just multiply things out to get a kW number. Doesn't work like that in the real world, especially when it comes to batteries.

The HV wiring is only 2/0 gauge. at 1500A or even 80% of that there is going to be significant sag there, plus more importantly the internal resistance of the cells under load. The internal resistance of the cells cause a significant voltage drop under load.

I've found the voltage drop under load, in testing, to be a hair better than the Panasonic NCR18650B, which has an internal resistance of about 55 miliohms in testing. I haven't made a definitive measure of the Model S cell internal resistance, but we'll be conservative and optimistic at the same time and say 40 miliohms.

So, at 1500A that is paralleled among 74 cells, so about 20.27A per cell. 85kWh pack is 96 sets in series of 74 cells in parallel. Remember amperage is constant across cells in series and split among cells in parallel.

Ohms law says that at 40 miliohms at 20.27A I would see a voltage drop of about 0.8108V. That would drop a fully charged pack's voltage from 403.2V down to 325.36V. 325.36 * 1500A = ~488kW.

For comparison, let's work the 1300A number from Elon. 1300A would be 17.57A per cell. Voltage drop of 0.7028V per cell @ 40 miliohms IR, so 335.73V. 335.73 * 1300A = ~436.5kW. Pretty close to reality considering this is optimistic and *only* accounts for internal resistance losses and not wiring, inverter, etc losses, which are bound to be appreciable.

So, being optimistic, I'm going to stick with saying about 500kW is the ceiling @ 1500A.

I'll go a little further and work the 420kW number (that we see currently from the P85D at full charge) backwards using the 1300A number from Elon and extrapolate.

420kW (~563HP) @ 1300A = 323.08V = 3.37V per cell after voltage drops (~0.8346V drop). That would give us 47.5 miliohms of resistance, which seems like a very reasonable full system number.

Using 47.5 miliohms at the 1500A level we get this:
0.96283V drop @ cell level, so 0.96283 * 96 = 92.43168V drop at the pack level = 310.76832V at the motor = ~466.1kW = about 625HP.

Basically there seems to be no way to spin this to look good.

Going to continue to pat myself on the back. My optimistic predictions (using lower than real world internal resistance numbers) were off by ~3% and ~7% of the real world data.

Seems the case is pretty much closed: Ludicrous mode, as of right now, does not get the P85D to 691 HP, based on REST data from a P90D posted elsewhere.

453 kW = 607 HP, or about 52 HP more than the P85D. Think I'll keep my $5-10k.

Now *maybe* the max power preheat thing will squeeze a few more kW out, but I don't see it adding 12% output.

 

[rns-e]

Going to continue to pat myself on the back. My optimistic predictions (using lower than real world internal resistance numbers) were off by ~3% and ~7% of the real world data.

Seems the case is pretty much closed: Ludicrous mode, as of right now, does not get the P85D to 691 HP, based on REST data from a P90D posted elsewhere.

453 kW = 607 HP, or about 52 HP more than the P85D. Think I'll keep my $5-10k.

Now *maybe* the max power preheat thing will squeeze a few more kW out, but I don't see it adding 12% output.

Before you pat your self to hard on the back and put your $5k back in your pocket, I believe WarpedOne can tell you where your are wrong, that is if the explanation for the P90D is the same as the P85D, of course minus the incompetent dutch translators ...

Nah, it is just marketing.

They could marketed P85D the same way as they marketed 85D - with max power output but then the people would go WTF? Both models have same max power, they must be the same cars, don't waste your money, it is a scam!!!!1111oneoneone
And all the work they did on improving maximum current to one motor and maximum torque at lower (and higher) end would go much wasted.

In the end the matters are stupidly simple. Each motor has its own limits, the battery has its own limits and the dynamic system of one battery, two controllers and two motors and one car as package has its own limits.
They beefed up front and rear motor/controller capabilities. The battery capability is above each of them by itself, but not above them combined. So they came out with 'clever marketing' of advertising (combined) motor power, that is pure sum motor/controller capabilities. Some incompetent dutch translators than went and translated that as 'max performance' or some such nonsense.

What could tesla do? Advertise P85D's 0-30 time and 70 - 100 time? With what would customers compare those numbers so they will see P85D as an awesome car? No other car company publishes those times.

What tesla could do and I would very much welcome such move is to publish what they already published for roadster - simple power/rpm chart.
But then again, 99% people would not have a clue what they are looking at. And would be totally confused by power starting at 0 at 0 rpm.

My point? There isn't one simple way of publishing the true technical specs and at the same time not shooting themselves into the foot by people totally misunderstanding those specs. People don't even understand there is no revving the engine at the start line in an EV.

 

[wk057]

Before you pat your self to hard on the back and put your $5k back in your pocket, I believe WarpedOne can tell you where your are wrong, that is if the explanation for the P90D is the same as the P85D, of course minus the incompetent dutch translators ...

I'll assume this is a joke. lol.

 

[rns-e]

ohh yes, very much.

Sorry WarpedOne, I have just been rolling around on the floor because of those posts.

 

[WarpedOne]

Sorry, I am not able to put it into simpler words.

 

[smac]

Guys cutting to the chase here.

Is a P90L what people were expected they were getting when they ordered the P85D ?

Seems even without pack warming, 0-60 WITHOUT ROLLOUT is exactly what the P85D was originally expected to hit, and the improvement in mid range also seems to have materialised.

IOW Is this in effect just a $10k price rise?

 

[rns-e]

Guys cutting to the chase here.

Is a P90L what people were expected they were getting when they ordered the P85D ?

Seems even without pack warming, 0-60 WITHOUT ROLLOUT is exactly what the P85D was originally expected to hit, and the improvement in mid range also seems to have materialised.

IOW Is this in effect just a $10k price rise?

Could be perceived so

Sorry, I am not able to put it into simpler words.

Touché

 

[sorka]

We're getting way ahead of ourselves on the P90DL. Let's wait until Pete has collected more data and there are a few others out there doing the same. We can't truly conclude anything from a sample of one.

First, the numbers don't add up. Whatever they're doing now is limited by software unless the new fuse isn't really 1500 amps. The new fuse is a monitor that blows the conductor exactly the current limit. It doesn't need to use a margin and rely on heat vs time. Even if we have a large voltage drop to 320 volts, that's still 643 hp at the battery.

 

[stopcrazypp]

We're getting way ahead of ourselves on the P90DL. Let's wait until Pete has collected more data and there are a few others out there doing the same. We can't truly conclude anything from a sample of one.

First, the numbers don't add up. Whatever they're doing now is limited by software unless the new fuse isn't really 1500 amps. The new fuse is a monitor that blows the conductor exactly the current limit. It doesn't need to use a margin and rely on heat vs time. Even if we have a large voltage drop to 320 volts, that's still 643 hp at the battery.

I'm in the side that predicted the P90D L will not get 691hp, but I do agree that the current numbers don't represent the max power yet. We know the 415kW from the P85D was taken from 100%SOC. This was taken at 86%SOC. We don't know yet the max power (this would be at 100% with the battery "prepared").

 

[Pete90D]

Guys cutting to the chase here.

Is a P90L what people were expected they were getting when they ordered the P85D ?

Seems even without pack warming, 0-60 WITHOUT ROLLOUT is exactly what the P85D was originally expected to hit, and the improvement in mid range also seems to have materialised.

IOW Is this in effect just a $10k price rise?

I'd say it's a little better than what the P85D was supposed to be. I'm guessing that Tesla used a rollout when finding the 0-60 numbers and my car, with what seems like lost traction, was at 2.901, which is 0.2s faster than the P85D was expected after the update that dropped it from 3.2, and 0.14s faster than the DragTimes 0-60 of 3.05s. At this point, I think 2.8 is very doable with the rollout as long as I can keep the traction in check and I'll be working on that in the next day or so.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes I understand this is about horsepower, but the P90DL is an improvement and the 0-60 runs show that.

- - - Updated - - -

Going to continue to pat myself on the back. My optimistic predictions (using lower than real world internal resistance numbers) were off by ~3% and ~7% of the real world data.

Seems the case is pretty much closed: Ludicrous mode, as of right now, does not get the P85D to 691 HP, based on REST data from a P90D posted elsewhere.

View attachment 92024
View attachment 92025

453 kW = 607 HP, or about 52 HP more than the P85D. Think I'll keep my $5-10k.

Now *maybe* the max power preheat thing will squeeze a few more kW out, but I don't see it adding 12% output.

Max was 456 with and without preheat. The graph includes the 456, the table was just about the times between 0-59 being 3s flat.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

That is a very interesting response, because the thrust of that article is that an electric car doesn't need as many horsepower. I'd certainly agree with him that an electric car with 500hp is a much faster and more capable car than an ICE with 500hp, but it doesn't really help when you claim 691hp and don't seem to deliver it.

This goes back to my earlier suggestion that Tesla should start using the term "effective HP" on its ratings if it wants to avoid this issue in the future.

- - - Updated - - -

I had the exact same thought when I read it yesterday, and almost posted. If I had, I also would have asked if anyone here might have any idea why Tesla's head of communication would post something like that. It certainly does not strengthen their position on the horsepower issue in any way.

Reyes doesn't seem to be particularly adept at communication, even though that is his job. Sorry, but I had to go there.

 

[sorka]

I'm in the side that predicted the P90D L will not get 691hp, but I do agree that the current numbers don't represent the max power yet. We know the 415kW from the P85D was taken from 100%SOC. This was taken at 86%SOC. We don't know yet the max power (this would be at 100% with the battery "prepared").

Just a minor clarification, I've seen 414KW at 90%.

- - - Updated - - -

This goes back to my earlier suggestion that Tesla should start using the term "effective HP" on its ratings if it wants to avoid this issue in the future.
.

Other manufacturers don't do this. They don't say SAE horsepower in their literature but everyone knows that their using a rating that can be compared to other cars so apples to apples comparisons can be made. I always assumed that when they said 691 hp that they mean that's how much the car would make at drive shafts at once. I never thought for an instant it would mean anything else. I've asked over a dozen car enthusiasts at work what they think manufacturer "hp" means with respect to advertised horsepower on cars and everyone without fail knew it was at either the drive shaft or "flywheel".

So if they started using that term, THAT would be what's comparable to the hp term without effective when comparing to other manufacturers. I think that might cause more confusion, not less. But I see your point regardless.

 

[jpet]

Max was 456 with and without preheat. The graph includes the 456, the table was just about the times between 0-59 being 3s flat.

Thanks Pete, this is quite interesting.
So, the max we logged for the P85D was 415 kW at 100% SoC.
The P90D is supposed to accelerate 20% faster from 0 to its max speed (10% faster 0 to 60 due to traction).
I would assume that this requires at least 20% more power from the battery to achieve.
415 x 1.2 = 498 kW...

Hope you are able to do some logging at 100% SoC to check if you can go higher than 456 kW.
There's also the possibility that the full 1500A has not yet been released.

 

[smac]

I'd say it's a little better than what the P85D was supposed to be. I'm guessing that Tesla used a rollout when finding the 0-60 numbers and my car, with what seems like lost traction, was at 2.901, which is 0.2s faster than the P85D was expected after the update that dropped it from 3.2, and 0.14s faster than the DragTimes 0-60 of 3.05s. At this point, I think 2.8 is very doable with the rollout as long as I can keep the traction in check and I'll be working on that in the next day or so.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes I understand this is about horsepower, but the P90DL is an improvement and the 0-60 runs show that.

Thanks Pete

I guess I was referring to an "implicit expectation" of P85D owners to get 3.2 with no roll out, because that's the metric used on all the other cars in the range and to date.

It's obviously still some cracking numbers, you must be very pleased!

 

[Pete90D]

Thanks Pete, this is quite interesting.
So, the max we logged for the P85D was 415 kW at 100% SoC.
The P90D is supposed to accelerate 20% faster from 0 to its max speed (10% faster 0 to 60 due to traction).
I would assume that this requires at least 20% more power from the battery to achieve.
415 x 1.2 = 498 kW...

Hope you are able to do some logging at 100% SoC to check if you can go higher than 456 kW.
There's also the possibility that the full 1500A has not yet been released.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here

So the power numbers I got were ~10% higher than the P85D @ max accleration, but you shouldn't need 20% to have a 20% improvement in 0-155, you just need more power to increase the speed by 20%. So if the power tapered from 456 to 250, you'd just need to be able to increase the 250 to a higher number to give you the extra power to move. That might be up to 300, which is 20% more.

I have emails out about getting onto Moffett to test the 0-155 in a place that's safe for me and everyone else and where it can be better documented.

Yeah I'm going to charge to 100% either tonight or tomorrow and go out with my laptop for power and the VBOX for times.

Thanks Pete

I guess I was referring to an "implicit expectation" of P85D owners to get 3.2 with no roll out, because that's the metric used on all the other cars in the range and to date.

It's obviously still some cracking numbers, you must be very pleased!

My understanding was the rollout was common for 0-60 tests, but I might be wrong about that. Keep in mind that the 2.9/3.2 I got did have some traction loss. When it happened I wasn't thinking much of it, but when sorka mentioned the fluctuation in G's I've been remembering how it felt, and it was definitely off.

The car didn't wiggle around a lot, but you could feel this kind of jittery loss of power like when wheels do spin. In some ways this is concerning to have it happen at 40mph when you launched at 0 and didn't have the feeling 0-30. Flooring a powerful car at speed and spinning tires has been done, but losing traction half way through while full throttle the whole time seems crazy. It aligns with Elon saying 30-60 is where the power is higher, but it makes me wish they had put 21x10s or 21x11s on the car.

 

[jpet]

The car didn't wiggle around a lot, but you could feel this kind of jittery loss of power like when wheels do spin. In some ways this is concerning to have it happen at 40mph when you launched at 0 and didn't have the feeling 0-30. Flooring a powerful car at speed and spinning tires has been done, but losing traction half way through while full throttle the whole time seems crazy.

I had my P85D spin on all 4 wheels when I ran over pedestrian crossing lines. No problem to keep the car under control (it did that automatically) but the Audi next to me catched up a bit while I was loosing traction. So something to remember, if you launch, steer between the pedestrian crossing lines...

 

[Pete90D]

I had my P85D spin on all 4 wheels when I ran over pedestrian crossing lines. No problem to keep the car under control (it did that automatically) but the Audi next to me catched up a bit while I was loosing traction. So something to remember, if you launch, steer between the pedestrian crossing lines...

I did this on a road that didn't have any painted lines crossing the lane.

When I first started reading your reply I read "spin all 4 wheels when I ran over a pedestrian"... I was like damn!