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Vehicle 2 Grid yet again
- Thread starter mrmage
- Start date
Buckminster
Well-Known Member
It is also possible that V2G and a Million mile will be a demand lever, a possible reason to upgrade your old Tesla, or your old pack to the latest technology.
The don't need to support V2G ijn all older cars, in some ways it is good if they don't
The don't need to support V2G ijn all older cars, in some ways it is good if they don't
My other recent thought about the Million Mile Battery, is we all call it that, but it is really the Minimum One Million Mile Battery.
Something substantially more then 1 Million Miles would not surprise me, so unless the car is being used a a Robo-taxi, there is probably plenty of battery life for regular use and V2G.
Dave Lee just estimated in a recent video that utilities might pay up to $1000 per year for a house that provides a VPP service.
In Australia the SA VPP project pay 22 cents to store 1 kWh in the home Powerwall, so obviously the storage capacity of the home battery and the supply and demand imbalance in the grid will determine how much money can be made.
Then as we discussed in the main thread a V2G solution might allow a Tesla to charge another EV or provide a useful electricity supply on building sites or camp sites...
So it is hard to see why V2G as part of a VPP solution will not eventually happen if utilities, and regulators permit it in an area.
If VPP and V2G are not allowed, then the ability for your EV output AC power, and run the home fridge from it in an emergency, is still a big plus.
The more I think of it the 2 things mostly likely to surprise on the upside for Battery Day are charging speed and battery longevity (cycle life), there are multiple R&D results, which may or may not compound.
Something substantially more then 1 Million Miles would not surprise me, so unless the car is being used a a Robo-taxi, there is probably plenty of battery life for regular use and V2G.
Dave Lee just estimated in a recent video that utilities might pay up to $1000 per year for a house that provides a VPP service.
In Australia the SA VPP project pay 22 cents to store 1 kWh in the home Powerwall, so obviously the storage capacity of the home battery and the supply and demand imbalance in the grid will determine how much money can be made.
Then as we discussed in the main thread a V2G solution might allow a Tesla to charge another EV or provide a useful electricity supply on building sites or camp sites...
So it is hard to see why V2G as part of a VPP solution will not eventually happen if utilities, and regulators permit it in an area.
If VPP and V2G are not allowed, then the ability for your EV output AC power, and run the home fridge from it in an emergency, is still a big plus.
The more I think of it the 2 things mostly likely to surprise on the upside for Battery Day are charging speed and battery longevity (cycle life), there are multiple R&D results, which may or may not compound.
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Buckminster
Well-Known Member
Could Tesla be a Electric utility provider in the US? They have applied to be so in the UK. You don't need to own infrastructure in the UK and I can swap to another provider seamlessly. Is it different in the US?
I asked a similar question in this thread:- Tesla Energy and utility scale projects
The replies follow below....
Regardless, the US seem up seems to be that US Utilities could be customers who purchase the VPP output, and Tesla can sell the aggregate electrcity. The exact split between Tesla and the Utility could vary .i.e who runs the VPP.
Because VPP runs over the internet it doesn't need to tap into the grid, and I guess grid import/export can be verified via customers meters..
Telsa being an actual utility would mean maintaining poles and wires.... and a lot of other stuff.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
What is funny is Fred and just about every YouTuber was caught out here..
I even trusted the comments from Munro.. via TeslaDaily..
However, if we look at things logically V2G makes a lot of sense at some stage...
Tesla sources attempting to break stories and getting stuff wrong is nothing new. it is fairly common with early unofficial information.
This product is interesting:-
The man behind Tesla’s Powerwall is now pitching an all-in-one power management system for homes – TechCrunch
Span | A Smarter Electrical Panel
I don't know if Span has some patent or other agreement that would prevent Tesla developing a similar product, or perhaps Tesla will simply buy Span.
The man behind Tesla’s Powerwall is now pitching an all-in-one power management system for homes – TechCrunch
Span | A Smarter Electrical Panel
I don't know if Span has some patent or other agreement that would prevent Tesla developing a similar product, or perhaps Tesla will simply buy Span.
It just seems like utilities would find it more beneficial to pay the upfront cost to build their own large battery systems rather than pay a premium over time to pay V2G producers. Usually it’s the little guy who doesn’t want to pay large upfront costs—utilities can surely get cheap loans. It would be an overall net benefit for car batteries to not go unused when they could help the grid, though.
I’m not convinced it will take off, but we will see what happens.
I’m not convinced it will take off, but we will see what happens.
I think the point is the VPP saves money for the utility, installing their own large battery also saves them money...
They can and probably will do both, they only pay for the VPP when they need to use it, their own battery they will cycle daily.
If the utility is paying to use the VPP it is saving them money. how much extra they would save by having their own battery depends on how much of the VPP they need to use and how often.
The home owner is picking up some of the tab and deriving other benefits, e.g. more efficient use of home solar, ability to ride through power outages...
It is subtle, but VPP also better maintains voltages in that local section of the grid, that can save the utility some maintenance and upgrades.
I've just thought of a very useful application of V2G....
As a theoretical exercise I looked at going off-grid here, with a very large home solar and battery set up...
Winter months May-August are problematic.
If there was a large solar farm near by with some seasonal storage and fast charging, we could charge our EVs there in winter and bring a bit of extra electrcity home to use via V2G... That is the difference between off-grid being impossible and possible... especially with 2 EVs doing it a few days per week.. (Possibly alternate days)
I'm not seriously considering this, and the solar farm with fast charging doesn't currently exist...
But if we only need to build and maintain an electricity grid to reliably connect fast chargers, that is cheaper than building a grid which connects every house.
For poor countries that don't currently have a grid, this may be a cheaper way to proceed.
As a theoretical exercise I looked at going off-grid here, with a very large home solar and battery set up...
Winter months May-August are problematic.
If there was a large solar farm near by with some seasonal storage and fast charging, we could charge our EVs there in winter and bring a bit of extra electrcity home to use via V2G... That is the difference between off-grid being impossible and possible... especially with 2 EVs doing it a few days per week.. (Possibly alternate days)
I'm not seriously considering this, and the solar farm with fast charging doesn't currently exist...
But if we only need to build and maintain an electricity grid to reliably connect fast chargers, that is cheaper than building a grid which connects every house.
For poor countries that don't currently have a grid, this may be a cheaper way to proceed.
While plausible, this is a pretty complicated situation that requires a number of recurring elements to fall into place. I liken it to hauling in water--people will do it (more likely, people will pay someone to do it...) in an occasional crisis situation like the pump going down, well running dry, etc., but very few people are going to buy into that being a seasonal operating mode.
Distancing V2X even further from the off-grid-home use case, there's such a small percentage of users that actually fall into the off grid category that there's really not much of a problem that needs to be solved (= no real demand for the service), and for folks on grid who think they want to go off grid...that's never the best solution. Paralleling the near ubiquitous disdain of ISPs, just because you don't like your ISP doesn't mean you can do it any better/faster/cheaper/more reliably.
The unfortunate reality of global economics is that countries with minimal infrastructure and no budget to expand the infrastructure are the last place V2X will ever find a use case. As prices come down solar+storage 'village grids' will certainly become viable infrastructure solutions, with benefits far outweighing electrified transportation.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
You don't even need V2G for EVs to buffer wind/solar variability. That can come later, perhaps, but for now you just need a LOT more EVs connected to smart chargers whenever parked. That easy, elegant approach doesn't boost Tesla product sales, however.
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